[TigaKerajaan]

he didnt really do anything bad until huang hao came around and technically it was huang hao who ruined the kingdom.

[Tyler]

Thats correct he didn't do anything bad but he also didn't do anything which makes him bad.

[sima old bandit]

Liu Shan is the ruler of a kingdom. He allowed Huang Hao to gain power, revelled in pleasure, neglected court duties, made loyal officials disillusioned, ignored loyal advice, demoted those who spoke up, promoted the sycophants, let Jiang Wei do his c**p....

Under-rated?

There are evil ppl everywhere, a leader needs to know who to use and discipline himself.

If Liu Shan met Liu Bei in the underworld and all those who died for the cause of Shu i don't think that excuse would really cut it.

[Sun Bin]

I agree though Shu had been greatly weakened from Kongming's Northern Campaigns Liu Shan still could have done more. Of course there was no way he could have beaten Wei he still could have put up more of a resistance. You know go out fighting for the cause of Shu. I hope Xuande's still slapping him around at the Nine Springs.

[青文景武剑]

liu chan is a very nice person, with people like zhugeliang (loyal), the country should be good

[Master Jiang KI]

are you all talking about the novel or real history?

[Klamath]

In general, sichuanese doesn't over complain Liu Shan for his surrender saved a lot of lives, and take the truth that Liu's Han had come to its end after the numerous tragical expedition. It does not contradict to the custom admiring ZhuGe Wuhou.

There is a very unique phenomenon in history,Shu people fought both extremely tough and weak. It depend on what the situation was.

●To be unified, each time the Shu just took a symbolistic fight.

Song : as a famous poetry decribed "Ten hundred thousand armymen took off their armor and surrender at the same time, none of them should be regard as "male" "十万大军齐卸甲，竟无一人是男儿“
Ming, PLA's marching were best examples.


●To resist non-han and alien's invasion, Shu people fought to the the last drop blood with extremely passion.
Mongol's: Diaoyu City(钓鱼城)
Manchu's: over 95% Sichuanese died in the successive wars（湖广填四川）
WWII: ....


I've focused on something no relevancy too much but which lead to my conclusion that Liu Shan was a wise king who often appears somekind idiot.(大智若愚）He knows the trend and always been a merciful ruler reduce exhaust of people brought by wars.He allowed the Jiang Wei's expedition, but restrict the army's size each time. Most of all, he shaped one of the aspects of the regional culture in Sichuan IMO.
Well, my concret evidence is still weak here,but there are many in records. Check out his policies. I think Liu shan is underrated by history but not by people.

[Liu Bei]

You are right Liu Chan is a little underrated!

[snowybeagle]

I would like to invite views from other CHF members on this character.

It was through reading comic version of 《三国志》 (SānGuóZhì - Chronicles of the Three Kingdoms) that I first read that Líu Shàn (刘禅), the successor of Líu Bèi (刘备) as ruler of the Shŭ-Hàn kingdom (蜀汉) from AD 223 until its demise in AD 263, that I encountered an interpretation of the character as someone who was intelligent.

In the comics, it showed Líu Shàn growing up well as a teenager, developing his skills on horseback archery etc. However, he soon encountered a delimna about his future role - and sank into depression. Zhūgé Liàng (诸葛亮) had to console Líu Bèi that it was a sign of early maturity and if the boy could breakthrough his delimna, he would soar to great heights.

Unfortunately, in the comics, Líu Shàn was unable to breakthrough and became a passive ruler, and coupled with a pacifist nature, was of no help to the kingdom in terms of reviving the Han Empire.

Two wikipedia's article on the character described him as a shrewd person.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liu_Shan
http://zh.wikipedia....%88%98%E7%A6%85

Unlike the portrayal in Romance of the Three Kingdom 《三国演义》 who showed him as mentally inept and weak-willed, Líu Shàn was supposed to be able to keep the Court on an even keel, balancing the expansionist efforts against overburdening the people.

His infamous “此间乐，不思蜀” was supposed to be feigned to make Sīmă Zhāo (司马昭) consider him as posing no threat.

While Zhūgé Liàng was alive, he was unable to veto the military campaigns against Wèi (魏), the articles went on to say that Líu Shàn lacked the confidence after Zhūgé Liàng's passing to halt the expeditions.

One view was that Líu Shàn could have established a more long-lasting Shŭ-Hàn kingdom if the state had not exhausted itself on earlier campaigns.

Another view was that it was small but fatal error in military strategy that enabled the Wèi to conquer the Shŭ-Hàn : otherwise, the tripartite balance might have continued for generations.

However, there was also no denying that he was only able to keep a lid rather than resolve the divisions in his Court, thus limiting the effectiveness of the government.

His trusting the eunuch Huáng Hào (黄皓) was also blamed for the weakness of the government, though others interpreted it as merely a power struggle against Jiāng Wéi (姜维). But power struggles had fatally weakened a state before, so it was no excuse.

[naruwan]

snowybeagle, on Jan 15 2006, 07:27 PM, said:

His trusting the eunuch Huáng Hào (黄皓) was also blamed for the weakness of the government, though others interpreted it as merely a power struggle against Jiāng Wéi (姜维). But power struggles had fatally weakened a state before, so it was no excuse.

We all know what happens to emperors who give eunuchs that much power.... Or what kind of people they are.

Your description would better suit 李後主 rather than 劉後主.

[qrasy]

what I heard long ago, seemingly from my father, was that Líu Shàn (well, first time I heard that it was "Líu Chán", seemingly wrong) was rather "stupid" and could not do anything without Zhuge Liang
(perhaps the "stupid" here just meant "very passive")
EDIT: also from English Wikipedia: "Liu Shan was commonly perceived as an incapable, even retarded ruler."

This post has been edited by qrasy: 16 January 2006 - 03:13 PM

[Iamnick]

Liu Shan was a capable ruler, who simply trusted the wrong man. He felt that since Zhuge couldn't break Wei, that Jiang Wei would have even less luck, but his allowance of Wei's campaigns clearly show that he was not passive.
The fact that he did not surrender until the last minitue shows that he was willing to try to keep the tripod going, but when he realized that his stubborness would result in the death of innocent people with no hope of winning, he surrendered.
Wikipedia is not a source to be trusted in any way. I could go in right now and write in "Liu Shan was a taco". ANyone can write anything, as long as they are a member, without any strikes on their record.

[Yun]

Quote

It was through reading comic version of 《三国志》 (SānGuóZhì - Chronicles of the Three Kingdoms) that I first read that Líu Shàn (刘禅), the successor of Líu Bèi (刘备) as ruler of the Shŭ-Hàn kingdom (蜀汉) from AD 223 until its demise in AD 263, that I encountered an interpretation of the character as someone who was intelligent.

Which comic series is this? Not the one by Li Zhiqing, which is the only one I know.

The problem with interpreting Liu Shan's personality is that Sanguo Zhi paints a colourless picture of him as being influenced by whoever is closest to him at that point in time. It doesn't consider that he could have a mind of his own.

[snowybeagle]

Yun, on Jan 17 2006, 05:10 PM, said:

Which comic series is this? Not the one by Li Zhiqing, which is the only one I know.

It was simply titled 《三国志》. It was quite different from other comics, but the interpretation by the artist is so bleak I returned it to the library within 2 days. Will see if I can find it again and note down the ISBN.

[snowybeagle]

Yun, on Jan 17 2006, 05:10 PM, said:

Which comic series is this? Not the one by Li Zhiqing, which is the only one I know.

Okay, I found the info - it was actually from Manga Sangokushi by Hiroshi Moriya, published by CASA SHOBO.

The Chinese translated copy in the National Library was published in Taiwan by 大步文化.

《三国志》 (上中下三冊)
守屋洋 - 主编
富新藏 - 繪图

I got 2 ISBN series, one found inside, the other on the backcover.
957-480-191-8/192-6/193-4
962-314-235-8/237-4/...