[Grand Genealogist]

The Lius, (ancestors of Emp. Taizung's mother), were they Xiongnu? The Lis, (Emp. Xienzu's mother), were they kin of the Tang dynasty?

[Yun]

The Dugu (orig. Liu) were descendants of the Right Prince (You Xianwang) of the Southern Xiongnu in the Three Kingdoms period, Luanti Qubei. In around 251, the Luanti ruling clan of the Xiongnu changed their family name to Liu to reflect their claim to descent from the marriage between a Han princess and the Modu Chanyu - hence the surname Liu used by the Xiongnu Han-Zhao state (from 304 to 329), whose rulers were descendants of the Xiongnu Chanyu.

The descendants of Luanti Qubei were known as the Tiefu Xiongnu - in the Wei Shu it is stated that Tiefu was a term for those Xiongnu who had Xianbei mothers. This suggests that intermarriage between the Dugu Xiongnu and the Xianbei had a long history (it has also been conjectured by Wang Zhongluo that Tuoba and Tufa were terms for Xianbei who had Xiongnu mothers). The family tree of the Dugu is as follows:

Luanti Qubei

Son: Liu Meng (rebelled against Cao-Wei and was killed in 272)

Son: Liu Fulun

Son: Liu Lugu

Son: Liu Kuren (put in charge of eastern half of the former Tuoba lands by the Former Qin after the conquest of Dai in 376; murdered by subordinates in 384)

Son: Liu Peini (surrendered to the Tuoba in 386)

Two other sons of Liu Kuren, Liu Xian and Liu Kangni, continued to fight against the Tuoba until their deaths. The Tiefu Xiongnu who had surrendered with Liu Peini were renamed as the Dugu - this may have been a variant of 'Tuge', which was the Xiongnu tribe from which the ruling Luanti clan came.

Another son of Luanti Qubei, Liu Gaoshengyuan, had a great-grandson named Liu Weichen who was given control of the western half of the former Tuoba lands by the Former Qin. He was defeated by the renascent Tuoba in 391, and murdered by his subordinates. One of his sons, Liu Bobo, fled to the Ordos region and founded a new state named Xia. This was only conquered by the Tuoba in 427 after a long war. By then Liu Bobo had died and had been succeeded by his son. Bobo had also changed his family name to Helian. The Xia ruler Helian Chang fled westwards to Gansu, but was captured in battle in 428. His younger brother Helian Ding succeeded him, and was able to conquer the Western Qin state of the Qifu Xianbei in 431. However, while he was crossing the Yellow River to attack the Northern Liang state further north a few months later, he was ambushed and captured by the Tuyuhun people of Qinghai (relatives of the Murong Xianbei). He was then presented to the Tuoba Wei, who executed him.

[Yun's Note: The information in this post has been superseded by subsequent research findings, for which please refer to later posts in the thread. The Dugu were probably not descended from Liu Peini, or from any of the Tiefu Xiongnu for that matter.

- 25 September 2006]

[Yun]

As for the mother of Emperor Xianzu (Lady Li), she had a very tragic life. She was a daughter of Li Fangshu, the Liu-Song dynasty's Prefect of Jiyin. She was captured along with her family by Northern Wei troops in a campaign against the Liu-Song, and taken as a concubine by the Wei prince Tuoba Ren. Later when Tuoba Ren offended the court and was executed, she became a slave in the imperial palace. One day, the 13-year-old Tuoba Jun (Emperor Wencheng) was walking around the palace and saw her from a tower. He was struck by her looks and asked his servants, "Do you think she's pretty?" They replied, "She's very pretty indeed." Tuoba Jun then summoned her to a storeroom nearby and made love to her. She later found that she was pregnant, and the Empress Dowager (Tuoba Jun's nursemaid) asked her who the father was, and she said that it was the emperor. The keeper of the storeroom had kept a private record of the event on the wall of the storeroom, and her story was thus proven to be true.

She was made a Third-rank Concubine (Guiren) after giving birth to Tuoba Hong (Xianzu/Emperor Xianwen). But because Tuoba Hong was made the crown prince, she was ordered to commit suicide according to the custom started by Tuoba Gui - this was to prevent the future emperor from being influenced by his mother and maternal relatives, and was inspired by the example of Han Wudi. She was told to write down all her last instructions to her brothers, including those still in the south. Before she killed herself, she kept crying "My brothers! My brothers!", and beating her chest and weeping inconsolably.

In the end, her five brothers Li Jun, Li Dan, Li Yi, Li Ya, Li Bai and Li Yong were all summoned to the capital by Tuoba Jun and made dukes. Li Jun was made a general and a governor, and rose to be a Prince and a Grand Mentor. They prospered because of her death. But her own son Tuoba Hong did not benefit in any way from her death. His stepmother Empress Dowager Feng (who had borne no children) dominated the imperial court, and had affairs with some of the ministers. When Tuoba Hong showed displeasure about this, he was forced to abdicate to his son (also named Tuoba Hong). He was later poisoned by Empress Dowager Feng.

Tuoba Hong's son Emperor Xiaowen (also known as Yuan Hong) was the famous one who initiated the 'sinicisation' policy of the Tuoba Wei, moved the capital to Luoyang, and changed the family name from Tuoba to Yuan.

Lady Li was in no way related to the Li of Longxi (the supposed lineage of the Tang). Neither was Emperor Xiaowen's mother (also a concubine from a Li family, this time in Zhongshan) related to the Li of Longxi.

[Yun]

Quote

Son: Liu Lugu

Son: Liu Kuren (put in charge of eastern half of the former Tuoba lands by the Former Qin after the conquest of Dai in 376; murdered by subordinates in 384)

Son: Liu Peini (surrendered to the Tuoba in 386)

Two other sons of Liu Kuren, Liu Xian and Liu Kangni, continued to fight against the Tuoba until their deaths. The Tiefu Xiongnu who had surrendered with Liu Peini were renamed as the Dugu - this may have been a variant of 'Tuge', which was the Xiongnu tribe from which the ruling Luanti clan came.

Additional stuff:

The Xin Tangshu genealogy of the Dugu actually traces them to Liu Toujuan, a younger son of Liu Kuren. Liu Toujuan was also a leader of the Tiefu Xiongnu, but was murdered by his nephew Liu Xian in 385. Liu Xian absorbed Liu Toujuan's tribe, and Toujuan's son Liu Luochen surrendered to the Tuoba. Liu Luochen is said to have moved to Luoyang with Emperor Xiaowen in 493, and founded the Dugu clan - a logical implausibility since this would make him over a hundred years old by that time.

The Xin Tangshu also claims that Luanti Qubei and Liu Meng were brothers, not father and son, but the earlier Wei Shu states that they were father and son.

[Grand Genealogist]

Yun, on May 12 2005, 05:10 AM, said:

Additional stuff:

Thanks, Yun! I'm still fairly new to this list; but it seems that you can always be counted upon to supply edifying information.
May the Force continue with you,
Ford

[Grand Genealogist]

I am wondering if any can add to the genealogy which I posted earlier on this topic. An extension into the past? A continuation forward? Other mothers? Daughters' marriages?


(We don't have an emoticon for pleading.)

[Yun]

I have a more complete genealogy of the Tuoba princes drawn out - as usual, it is in a rough pencilled form in Chinese,and will probably only be rendered in proper format when I write my books.

[Yun]

Alright, here (for what it's worth) is what I have done so far in tracing the descendants of Tuoba Gui. It's by no means comprehensive or exhaustive, but avoids the problem of focusing only on the imperial line and not on other princes. This is extremely important when we consider that the last few Wei emperors (both eastern and western) were descendants of minor princes, not emperors.

A year after a name indicates year of death; a cross next to it indicates death by assassination, murder or execution. Hopefully someone can translate this chart from Chinese for you!

[Grand Genealogist]

Yun, on Jun 2 2005, 09:03 PM, said:

Alright, here (for what it's worth) is what I have done so far in tracing the descendants of Tuoba Gui. It's by no means comprehensive or exhaustive, but avoids the problem of focusing only on the imperial line and not on other princes. This is extremely important when we consider that the last few Wei emperors (both eastern and western) were descendants of minor princes, not emperors.

Hopefully someone can translate this chart from Chinese for you!

Nope, not that I know of. But thank you anyway!
Still awaiting your book(s). [sigh]

[Grand Genealogist]

Yun, on May 12 2005, 12:25 AM, said:

The Dugu (orig. Liu) were descendants of the Right Prince (You Xianwang) of the Southern Xiongnu in the Three Kingdoms period, Luanti Qubei.

...

Son: Liu Kuren (put in charge of eastern half of the former Tuoba lands by the Former Qin after the conquest of Dai in 376; murdered by subordinates in 384)

Son: Liu Peini (surrendered to the Tuoba in 386)

Two other sons of Liu Kuren, Liu Xian and Liu Kangni, continued to fight against the Tuoba until their deaths. The Tiefu Xiongnu who had surrendered with Liu Peini were renamed as the Dugu - this may have been a variant of 'Tuge', which was the Xiongnu tribe from which the ruling Luanti clan came.

Can these be connected to the Dugus who were ancestral to the Sui, the Tang, and some of the N. Zhou?

[Yun]

Quote

Can these be connected to the Dugus who were ancestral to the Sui, the Tang, and some of the N. Zhou?

Yes. Dugu Xin provided daughters as wives to one Northern Zhou emperor, one future Sui founding emperor, and one father of a future Tang founding emperor. That is why when it is pointed out ad nauseam that the Sui and Tang emperors had some 'Xianbei blood', it should be noted that some of these 'Xianbei' in the family tree were originally Xiongnu.

[Yun's note: After further research, I have reversed my position expressed in this post. Please see subsequent posts.

- 25 Sept 2006]

[Grand Genealogist]

Yun, on Sep 19 2006, 10:31 PM, said:

Yes. Dugu Xin provided daughters as wives to one Northern Zhou emperor, one future Sui founding emperor, and one father of a future Tang founding emperor. That is why when it is pointed out ad nauseam that the Sui and Tang emperors had some 'Xianbei blood', it should be noted that some of these 'Xianbei' in the family tree were originally Xiongnu.

I should, maybe, have phrased the question differently: Does anyone have the connecting link?
Respectfully,

[Yun]

The short answer is that there is no definite link except for the surnames, but it's a complicated problem. The Xin Tangshu genealogy of the Dugu has the following line:

Liu Luochen (changed his surname to Dugu after 493)

Luochen's Son: Dugu Wanling (Minister of Justice in the Northern Wei)

Wanling's Son: Dugu Ji 稽 (General Garrisoning the East)

Ji's Son: Dugu Gui (General Garrisoning the East)

Gui's Son: Dugu Ji 冀 (Governor of Dingzhou)

Ji's Son: Dugu Yongye (Minister of Criminal Punishment in the Northern Zhou)

Yongye's Son: Dugu Zijia (Governor of Huaizhou in the Sui)

Followed by Dugu Zijia's descendants serving the Tang.

Dugu Xin, however, is not in this genealogy. His biography in the Zhou Shu traces him to a chieftain of 36 tribes, named Fuliutun, who allied himself with the Northern Wei at its founding in 386. Dugu Xin's grandfather Qini was one of the aristocrats sent from Yunzhong to serve in the frontier garrison of Wuchuan in 460-465, and settled down there. Qini's son Kuzhe was supposedly well-respected among the garrisons for his martial skills and chivalry. Dugu Xin was Kuzhe's son, and during the Mutiny of the Six Garrisons he was captured by the rebel leader Ge Rong and recruited as a general. After Erzhu Rong defeated and captured Ge Rong outside Luoyang, Dugu Xin joined Erzhu Rong's army. Later, Erzhu Rong was assassinated and the other Erzhu were destroyed by Gao Huan. Dugu Xin served in the court of the Northern Wei emperor Yuan Xiu, who was dominated by Gao Huan. When Yuan Xiu fell out with Gao Huan in 534 and fled to Yuwen Tai at Chang'an, Dugu Xin followed him, leaving his own wife and son behind. He became one of the senior generals of the Western Wei and Northern Zhou regimes, but was forced to commit suicide at the age of 54 by the powerful Northern Zhou minister Yuwen Hu.

It is possible that Dugu Xin was indeed related to the family line of Dugu Zijia, based on a single sentence in the Bei Shi. There, it is stated that Dugu Zijia's father Dugu Yongye was originally a Northern Qi general at the time of Dugu Xin's death. Dugu Xin's first son Dugu Luo had been left behind in the Eastern Wei when Dugu Xin fled to Chang'an, and was imprisoned by Gao Huan. After Dugu Xin died, Dugu Luo was released as he was no longer seen as a threat. He moved to Zhongshan and lived in great poverty. Dugu Yongye took pity on Dugu Luo on account of their being of the same clan, and bought fields and a house for Luo as well as giving him some livestock.

Probably after the Northern Qi was conquered by Northern Zhou in 577, Dugu Yongye also served the Northern Zhou court as Minister of Criminal Punishment. Dugu Luo himself was brought to Dingzhou after the fall of the Northern Qi, because Yang Jian was then the Northern Zhou military commander there and his wife Dugu Qieluo (later Empress Dugu) was Luo's half-sister. Dugu Qieluo treated Dugu Luo very well despite never having known him, but Dugu Xin's other sons (borne by two later wives) despised him and refused to treat him as a brother. Nonetheless, Dugu Luo served in high positions under the Sui dynasty because of his relation to Empress Dugu.

Dugu Xin's children, other than Dugu Luo, were all born in the Western Wei and Northern Zhou to his two new wives, Lady Guo and Lady Cui. It is not stated which wife bore the Northern Zhou empress and the mother of Li Yuan, but the Bei Shi records that Lady Cui was the mother of Dugu Qieluo. I now believe this is the origin of the claim you came across, that Empress Dugu's mother was from the prestigious Qinghe Cui clan (refer to this old post: http://www.chinahistoryforum.com/index.php...t&p=4718784 ); however, there was no specific statement in the Bei Shi that Lady Cui was from the Qinghe clan. Lady Guo bore six sons to Dugu Xin: Dugu Shan, Dugu Mu, Dugu Zang, Dugu Shun, Dugu Tuo, and Dugu Zheng.

[Grand Genealogist]

Yun, on Sep 22 2006, 11:39 PM, said:

The...answer is...

Thanks, again, Yun!
You are always so knowledgable AND helpful about this period.


And, yes, that was where I slipped. It should have been Cui of Ching-ho. Don't know how she ties into that family, though.

---------> On apersonal note:
How goes your thesis/dissertation?

This post has been edited by Grand Genealogist: 27 September 2006 - 01:14 PM

[Yun]

You're welcome! I have learned alot from answering your question too - I always assumed before that there was a clear link between Dugu Xin and the Tiefu Xiongnu, but now I'm very skeptical of it.

I found out more about Dugu Yongye and Liu Luochen yesterday, and think I should tell you about it because it has changed my whole opinion on the Dugu-Tiefu link.

Quote

There, it is stated that Dugu Zijia's father Dugu Yongye was originally a Northern Qi general at the time of Dugu Xin's death. Dugu Xin's first son Dugu Luo had been left behind in the Eastern Wei when Dugu Xin fled to Chang'an, and was imprisoned by Gao Huan. After Dugu Xin died, Dugu Luo was released as he was no longer seen as a threat. He moved to Zhongshan and lived in great poverty. Dugu Yongye took pity on Dugu Luo on account of their being of the same clan, and bought fields and a house for Luo as well as giving him some livestock.

Probably after the Northern Qi was conquered by Northern Zhou in 577, Dugu Yongye also served the Northern Zhou court as Minister of Criminal Punishment.

Dugu Yongye's biography in Beiqi Shu and Bei Shi both state he was not born a Dugu. His father was a Liu from Zhongshan prefecture, but his mother (presumably after his father's death) remarried a Dugu whn Yongye was still a child. Yongye was raised by the Dugu clan and thus adopted its surname. This seems to be rather a coincidence since the Dugu had themselves held the Liu surname either before or after 496. The Xin Tangshu genealogy of the Dugu contradicts the Wei Shu list of surname changes imposed in 496: according to the Wei Shu, the Dugu surname was changed (back?) to Liu in 496, but according to the Xin Tangshu, Liu Luochen began using the surname Dugu after joining in the shift of the Northern Wei capital to Luoyang in 493.

In any case, Dugu Yongye distinguished himself as a Northern Qi official and general, eventually being enfeoffed as Prince of Linchuan. When he saw that the Northern Qi had no chance of surviving the Northern Zhou invasion in 577, he surrendered to the Zhou. In 578, he served the Zhou as military commander of Xiangzhou province, holding the titles of Great Pillar of State General and Duke of Ying. But in 580 he was killed for an unstated reason by another military commander named Cui Yanmu. The Xin Tangshu genealogy of the Dugu states that he was Minister of Criminal Punishment under the Northern Zhou, but there is no mention elsewhere of him holding this post. It also states he was Prince of Linchuan prefecture, without clarifying that he held this fief under the Northern Qi, not the Northern Zhou. Nor is there any acknowledgment that Dugu Yongye was not born a Xiongnu or Xianbei, and that his son Dugu Zijia and Zijia's descendants were thus Xiongnu or Xianbei only in name.

It appears that Dugu Yongye saw Dugu Xin's family as being his kinsmen. But can either Dugu Yongye or Dugu Xin really be traced back to the Tiefu Xiongnu of Liu Luochen? I now find this very doubtful. Liu Luochen's biography is in Chapter 83A of the Wei Shu, under Imperial Maternal Relatives because his younger sister was a concubine of Tuoba Gui and bore the second Wei emperor, Tuoba Si (she was, in fact, the first Wei concubine to be executed after bearing a Crown Prince, to prevent her from controlling the court through her son - a cruel institution started by Tuoba Gui).

It is not specified in 83A which year Liu Luochen died, but his descendants are listed as:
Eldest son: Liu Shuhui (inherits Luochen's fief as Duke Yong'an, serves as Governor of Bingzhou)
Shuhui's Son: Liu Qiuying (General of the Imperial Guards)
Qiuying's Son: Liu Ertou (served as magistrate in two counties)
Ertou's Son: Liu Renzhi (active in the Northern Wei court in the 520s and 530s, died in 544; has his own biography in Chapter 81)

Note that this is a totally different genealogy from the Xin Tangshu Dugu genealogy:

Quote

Liu Luochen (changed his surname to Dugu after 493)

Luochen's Son: Dugu Wanling (Minister of Justice in the Northern Wei)

Wanling's Son: Dugu Ji 稽 (General Garrisoning the East)

Ji's Son: Dugu Gui (General Garrisoning the East)

Gui's Son: Dugu Ji 冀 (Governor of Dingzhou)

Ji's Son: Dugu Yongye (Minister of Criminal Punishment in the Northern Zhou)

Yongye's Son: Dugu Zijia (Governor of Huaizhou in the Sui)

It is not stated in Liu Luochen's bio that he moved to Luoyang in 493 (by which time he should be very old indeed, if still alive), or that he changed his surname to Dugu after that.

It seems clear to me now that the Xin Tangshu genealogy, which is the only source that claims the Dugu were originally Tiefu Xiongnu, is completely unreliable. It is true that in 496 the Dugu tribe was made to change its surname to Liu, and that it reverted to Dugu probably in the 530s. But there is no credible evidence that the Dugu tribe was already known as 'Liu' before the founding of the Northern Wei, or that they were descended from Liu Luochen. The Xin Tangshu genealogy represents an effort by the Dugu of the Tang dynasty (one of whom, Dugu Sun, became Prime Minister in the dynasty's last years) to contruct a prestigious ancestry for themselves. The genealogy claims that Liu Jinbo, a descendant of the first Eastern Han emperor Liu Xiu, was captured by the Xiongnu during a military campaign, and that Jinbo's son founded the Dugu tribe among the Xiongnu. It then equates the Tiefu Xiongnu with the Dugu tribe, with Liu Qubei (Right Virtuous King of the Southern Xiongnu in the 180s) and Liu Meng (who was actually Qubei's son, not his brother) as the great-grandsons of Liu Jinbo. Next, it tries to show that Dugu Yongye was descended from Liu Luochen, who was descended from Liu Meng. For some reason, it was not felt necessary or prudent to include Dugu Xin's line in the genealogy, perhaps because that was tantamount to claiming kinship with the Tang imperial house.

My conclusion at this point would be that any idea of Dugu Xin and Dugu Yongye as being descended from Liu Luochen (or even Liu Peini, as my first post on this thread suggested some time ago) lacks the most basic supporting evidence. Instead, there is much evidence of lineage falsification by the Dugu to link themselves with the Eastern Han imperial clan via the Tiefu Xiongnu. For all we know, the Dugu could just have been a normal Xianbei tribe in the beginning, as Dugu Xin's biography in fact indicates. There is no reason to say they were Xiongnu, even though many people, including myself, long believed that they were.

Quote

---------> On apersonal note:
How goes your thesis/dissertation?

Haven't started writing yet, but research is going very well indeed. I think I should be able to start the writing soon.