[snowybeagle]

The founder of the Later Tang Dynasty (后唐), Li CúnXù (李存勖) and his father Li KeYong (李克用), originally of the family name Zhuxie(shi) 朱邪氏, were said to be of Sha-Tuo (沙陀) ethnicity.

What were these group of people?
Did the name Sha-Tuo have any relation to Sogdian?
Where did they come from and did they get assimilated eventually into the ethnic-Han people?

[General_Zhaoyun]

I think they were turkic people..they are sometimes commonly known as "Sha-Tuo Tujue Ren (沙陀突厥人)"

[Yun]

The Shatuo were a branch of the Western Turkut (Tujue) who pledged allegiance to the Tang. They rose to prominence by helping to suppress the An Lushan rebellion, and thereafter formed an important component of the Tang cavalry in Inner Mongolia, especially after the fall of the Uyghur kaghanate.

They were not related to the Sogdians (Su'te), and essentially were assimilated into the Han after the fall of the Later Tang.

[Yihesan]

The Shatuo Tujue and Qïpchaqs have no relation.

As Yun said, the Shatuo Tujue ("Desert Turks") were a group formed from some Western Türüks (Tujue). They found a few small dynasties in China too...

The Önggüt (Öñgüt) people who lived during the rise of Chinggis Khaan were descendents of these Shatuo Tujue. Some Önggüts later formed parts of the Kazaks.

[Snafu]

Origin of Shatuo

There is a section devoted to Shatuo in New History of Tang Dynasty. Shatuo had its origin from 'Chuyue' tribe, an alternative race of the Western Turks. New History of Tang Dynasty stated that Eastern Turks and Western Turks divided the ancient land of Wu'sun (today's Ili area). 'Chuyue' tribe and 'Chumi' tribe co-lived with the Turks in this area. In the 7th year reign of Zhen'guan Era, i.e., AD 633, Tang Emperor Taizong supported Duolu as the khan for Western Turks. A Turkic chieftan called Buzhen tried to absorb the people of his brother Mishe, causing Mishe and Chuyue Tribe to seek vassalage with Tang. Shortly thereafter, Buzhen sought vassalage with Tang, too. Khan Duolu erected Helu, the son of a 'tele' (prince), as the chief in charge of remaining Western Turks. Later, Western Turks had internal strife and split into two courts. Chuyue Tribe went with the northern court under arch-chieftan Khan Duolu, and they lived to the south of Jinsuoshan Mountain, to the east of which would be a desert called Shatuo; hence, Chuyue Tribe called themselves Shatuo (Sha'to) Turks.

In AD 639, with the help of Xueyantuo (Sheyanto) Turkic tribe (one component of the Tiele Tribes), Tang army of 100,000 travelled 7,000 li distance to fight Gaochang Statelet (Turpan area), scaring Gaochang King Qu Wentai to death. Qu Wentai's son surrenderred after learning that the relief army of Western Khanate Turks had fled home half way. Emperor Taizong renamed Gaochang to Xizhou, and made it the locality for the governor-general office in charge of Yutian, Suiye (Tokmok), Shule and Chouci. Later, in AD 659, Xizhou or Anxi 'Protector-General (Marshal Presidio)' office was relocated to Chouci. In AD 702, Tang would set up Beiting 'Protector-General (Marshal Presidio)' office in Tingwai or Tingzhou (present-day Jimsar), a place located to the east of Suiye (Tokmok), to the south of Xizhou (Turpan), and to the west of Yizhou (Hami).

Turks of Beiting (Beiting meaning the original 'northern Turkic court'), under Khan Duolu, once attacked Yizhou (Hami) and surrounded the areas around the Tianshan Mountains with two columns of army. Tang Governor-General for An-xi, Guo Xiaoke, defeated the Turks and took over Chuyue's sijin (governor) city. Khan Duolu later was defeated and he fled southward to the 'Tu-huo-luo' statelet. (Tu-huo-luo', as area surrounded by Afghanistan, Tibet and Turkistan, was said to have mutated from Chinese characters of 'da [grand] xia', and some Central Asians, who claimed descent from Huns or Xia Chinese, even likened the sound of Avar to the Chinese characters of 'a hua'.) Helu surrendered to Tang. Tang erected Helu as the governor of Yaochi and relocated his tribe to Mohecheng city of Tingzhou Prefecture. A Chuyue sijin, Zhuye Que, sought vassalage with Tang. In AD 650, Helu rebelled against Tang. A Chuyue chieftan, Zhuye Guzhu, killed a Tang officer, zhaowei-shi (i.e., pacifying and consoling inspector) Lian Heh, and Zhuye Guzhu joined Helu in rebelling against Tang. Chuyue occupied Laoshan Mountain. Tang conferred Helu's title onto another Chuyue chieftan (Shatuo Nasu). In AD 651, Tang army, under the command of Lian Jianfang (zong guan or omnipotent magistrate of Gongyue-dao Circuit) and Qibi Heli (a Tang general of nomadic origin), defeated rebelling Chuyue chieftan by the name of 'Zhuye Guzhu', killed him, and captured 9000 Shatuo people. In AD 652, Tang revoked Yaochi governorship and made the Chuyue land into two prefectures of Jinman and Shatuo, to be under two governors, instead. After Helu fled, an-hu da-shi (pacifying ambassordor) Ashina Mishe went for the Ili River area. Tang erected Kunling Protector-General Office for control of the Duolu tribe, with Ashina Mishe as du-hu, i.e., protector-general.

In AD 661, Chuyue chieftan, Shatuo Jinshan, assisted Tang General Xue Rengui in campaigning against Tiele Tribes. Shatuo Jinshan was conferred the title of moli-jun taoji-shi, i.e., the campaigning general for Moli-jun Garrison. Shatuo Jinshan was upgraded to the title of governor for Jinman-zhou prefecture and Duke Zhangye-jun-gong during the second year of Chang'an Era, i.e., AD 702.

After the death of Shatuo Jinshan, his son Zhuye Fuguo succeeded the post. Shatuo tribe relocated northward to Beiting office for sake of avoiding the Tibetans and led pilgrimage to the Tang court. During the 2nd year of Kaiyuan Era, i.e., AD 714, Shatuo was conferred the title of governor for Jinman-zhou prefecture again. Zhuye Fuguo's mother (Shu-ni-shi) was conferred the title of Shan'guo Furen or Lady Shan'guo. Zhuye Fuguo was later upgraded to the title of King Yongshou-jun. His son, Zhuye Guduozhi, succeeded him.

When Huihe sought vassalage with Tang in early Tianbao Era, i.e., AD 714, Zhuye Guduozhi was conferred the title of deputy protector-general for the Huihe tribe. In AD 740s, Chuyue followed Huihe (Uygurs) in aiding Tang Emperor Suzong during the An-Shi Rebellion. Chuyue chieftan, Zhuye Guduozhi, was conferred the title of 'tejin' (governor) and xiaowei shang-jiangjun (i.e., colonel high general). After Zhuye Guduozhi would be son Zhuye Jinzhong. Zhuye Jinzhong succeeded the title and was further conferred the title of jinwuwei da-jiangjun and Duke of Jiuquanxian-gong (Jiuquan County).

During the eras of Zhide (AD 756) and Baoying (AD 762), China was undergoing turmoils, and Xizhou and Beiting were disconnected from China. Emissaries between west and China had to go through exploitations while travelling through Huihe territories. Shatuo people were oppressed by Huihe. In late AD 790s, 7000 Shatuo tents, under Shatuo Jinzhong (Zhuye Jinzhong), sought suzerainty with Tibetans. Together with Tibetans, they attacked the Beiting governor office. Tibetans later relocated the Shatuo to Ganzhou Prefecture. Tibetans used Shatuo Jinzhong (Zhuye Jinzhong) as front-runner armies against the Tang border. When Huihe took over Liangzhou of Gansu Province, Tibetans became wary of Shatuo's relationship with Huihe. Tibetans, suspicious of Shatuo's loyalty, intended to relocate Shatuo to some distant place. In AD 808, Shatuo Jinzhong (Zhuye Jinzhong) consulted with Zhuye Zhiyi and decided to lead 30,000 people on an exodus to the Xiaoguan Pass of Tang China. Tibetans chased them all the way, along the Wudejian-shan Mountain, fought major battles at Lintao and Shimen, and killed Shatuo Jinzhong (Zhuye Jinzhong). Zhuye Zhiyi led remnants to Lingzhou-sai border pass. Tang General Fan Xichao of Lingzhou Prefecture offered asylum to the Shatuo people, assigned them to Yanzhou Prefecture, and bought buffalo and sheep on behalf of Shatuo people. Shatuo elderlies and children, coming from Fengxiang-dao, Xingyuan-dao and Taiyuan-dao circuits, would find their way to Yanzhou to get a reunion. Shatuo Jinzhong's brother, Shatuo Ge-le-a-bo, led about 700 remnants to Zhenwu and was conferred the title of leftside wuwei grand general and governor for Yinshan-fu prefecture.

Zhuye Zhiyi came to Tang capital Chang'an and was granted silk clothing and horses and conferred the titles of 'tejin' and 'jinwuwei jiangjun'. When Fan Xichao was dispatched to Taiyuan of Shanxi Prov, Fan Xichao selected two thousand Shatuo cavalry and named it 'Shatuo Column'. Rest of Shatuo people were settled in Dingxiangchuan area. Zhuye Zhiyi was ordered to guard Huanghuadui of Shenwuchuan area and they renamed themselves the "Northern Shatuo of Yinshan".

[Karakhan]

chinghiz, on Feb 8 2006, 07:50 PM, said:

Very interesting. But, I don't understand how the Shatuo Tujue can be the Kazaks if they were a group of Western Turks? I understand that the Kazaks were eastern Turks or Mongoloid (in particular, Mongols) who were turkified. Can you explain this? Also, if you have any source for your conclusion on the Shatuo being the Kazaks?

it could be all of the above. The Kazakhs certainly weren't a homogenous people, they were a federation of several Turkic speaking tribes. After all, the languages spoken by today's Kazakhs, Kyrgyz, Bashkir and Altai are pretty intelligible with each other. In addition to the Ongguts, the Naiman and Kereit whom Chighiz Khan fought against and employed under (respectively) are also found in both Kazakh and Kyrgyz clans. called Nayman and Kerei. Other tribes within the Kazakhs are descended from the ancient Kipchaks in far north west Kazakhstan. The Sha-Tuo and Western Turks would be much much further back down the line though.

[Karakhan]

chinghiz, on Feb 10 2006, 06:08 PM, said:

Thank you for your response.
In fact, it is written that Shatuo Turks were part of the Western Turks (Annals of Five Dynasties). But, interestingly, it is also true that the geographic area in which the Shatuo Turks are described to have dwelled is indeed Kazakh Autonomous Region in China. Thus, though I said the Kazakhs appear to be Eastern Turks, in fact the Kasaks may be the descendants of the Shatuo Turks based on the geographic areas they are living now. However, I don't know whether this possibility would match the historical facts. That's the reason I am asking for some basis (historical source ect) for our believing so.

Second, I want to see if there is any body who can tell what the meaning of "Shatuo/shata/shada/shad" is in Turkic languages (In the above Annals, it is explained in Chinese that it means "Sand Dunes or Sand Desert".) Further, if this "Shatuo" is a Turkic word, which language or dialect does it belong to?

Regarding Nayman and Kereit, I still have some belief that they were originally Mongol tribes rather than Kazakhs even if they are now found among the Kazakh people.

hello Chinghiz. The Naiman and Kereit were Turkic speaking according to what has been reported of them. Kazakh culture emphasizes memorizing one's lineage, and many trace their lineages down to the era of Chinghiz Khan. It is a fact that the Naiman and Kereit remnants joined with other Mongol and Turkic tribes in the region to form the federation known as the Kazakh and Kyrgyz hordes. Most other western sources would generically label Kazakhs as a fusion of Mongols and Turks.

Also, the Kazakhs came into Northern Xinjiang only recently during the Qing era in order to fill the vacuum left by the defeat of the Jungars.

[Karakhan]

chinghiz, on Feb 11 2006, 11:23 PM, said:

I also partly agree with you. But, what bothers me is that the tribal names of Naiman and Kereit are Mongol words meaning "Eight (clans)" and "Crows" respectively. Thus, in combination of the fact that they were using Turkic language, it is my suspicion that they were originally Mongol tribes having Mongol tribal names, but they adopted Turkic after mutal contact with the latter group. How do you think about this? Further, what is your ground saying that trhey were Turk language users? Any sources?
Second, and again, I want to see if there is any body who can tell what the meaning of "Shatuo/shata/shada/shad" is in Turkic languages (In the above Annals, it is explained in Chinese that it means "Sand Dunes or Sand Desert".) Further, if this "Shatuo" is a Turkic word, which language or dialect does it belong to?

Thanks.

thee question you need to ask yourself is.. what IS the difference between Turkic and Mongol tribes? physically they are the same, life styles similar, and even language has many similarities.

I don't know what Shatuo is because the way Chinese pronounce Turkic words.. it looks and sounds nothing like the original.

as for Naiman and Kereit here are some sources that mention them as either Turkic speaking, or the ancestry of some Kazakhs to them:

http://www.religions...et/histen1b.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kerait
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naimans
http://www.nestorian...n_timeline.html
http://www.religion-...tle=1553&C=1362

In addition, the Naimans primarily inhabitted the Altai region, their immediate neighbors were the Uighurs to the south and the Kyrgyz to the north, and Kipchaks to the further west, all Turkic speaking along with them.

[Akskl]

Turkic speaking groups (or tribes) like Kereits, Naimans, Jalairs, Qongyrats, Onguts (now Waqs or Uaks), Merkits, etc. should not be called "Mongols". They were Turks in 11-13th centuries, and they are Kazakh Turks today (see www.elim.kz).

About Sha-tuo Turks and Toba Turks, how they ruled Northern China, you can read in Rene Grousset's "Empire of the Steppes".

http://www.kyrgyz.ru...hp?showtopic=42

http://www.kyrgyz.ru...p?showtopic=167


Rene Grousset "Empire of the Steppes" Rutgers University Press :

p.191 "The Kerayit people are usually considered as Turks. " The legend of Mongol origins leaves no room for them, and it is hard to say whether the Kerayit were Mongols who had been strongly influenced by the Turks , or Turks, who were becoming Mongolized. In any event, many Kerayit titles were Turkic, and Togrul is a Turkic rather than a Mongol name"

Introduction:

p.xxiv (13th line from bottom):
"...the Kerayit or Naimans, presumably Turkic, in the twelfth (century)..."

p.xxv (4 line from the top):
"...Nevertheless, history tells us that in Mongolia itself the Jenghis-Khanites mongolized many apparently Turkic tribes: the Naimans of the Altai, the Kerayits of the Gobi, and the Onguts of Chahar. Before the unification under Jenghis Khan which brought all these tribes under the Blue Mongols, part of present day Mongolia was Turkic; indeed even now a Turkic people, the Yakut, occupy northeastern Siberia, north of the Tungus, in Lene, Indigirka, and Kolyma basins. The presense of this Turkic group so near Bering Strait, north of the Mongols and even of the Tungus on the Arctic Ocean, neccesitates caution in attempts to determine the relative position of the "first" Turks, Mongols, and Tungus..."

Kereits were Turks in 1000's when they were baptized. See for example:

http://www.nestorian...n_timeline.html

1007-1008 Conversion of 200,000 Kerait Turks

http://www.oxuscom.com/timeline.htm

1007-1008 Conversion of 200,000 Kerait Turks to Nestorian Christianity

http://www.religion-...r...tle=1553&am p;am p;am p;C=1362


There were Nestorian missionary activities further to the northeast, toward Lake Baikal. During the 10th and 11th centuries, several Tartar tribes were entirely or to a great extent Christian, notably the Keraits, Uighurs, Naimans and Merkits.
Keraits were a Turko-Mongolian tribe. The Kerait capital at this time was Karakoram, where Marco Polo found a church. They were a cluster of hunting tribes east and south of Lake Baikal. The principal tribes evangelized there by the Nestorians were the Naiman, the Merkit and the Kerait. It seems that the Gospel was taken to those tribes by Christian merchants. An account of the conversion of the Keraits is given by the thirteenth century Jacobite historian Gregory Bar Hebraeus. According to Hebraeus, at the beginning of the eleventh century, a king of the Keraits lost his way while hunting in the high mountains. When he had abandoned all hope, a saint appeared in a vision and said, "If you will believe in Christ I will lead you lest you perish." He returned home safely. He remembered the vision when he met some Christian merchants. He inquired of them of their faith. At their suggestion he sent a message to the Metropolitan of Merv for priests and deacons to baptize him and his tribe. As a result of the mission that followed, the Kerait prince and two hundred thousand of his people accepted baptism. (R. Grousset, The Empire of the Steppes, New Brunswick, NJ, Rutgers University Press, 1970, p. 191. See also Moffett, A History of Christianity in Asia pp. 400-401.)



IGOR DE RACHEWILTZ, Turks in China under the Mongols: A Preliminary Investigation of Turco-Mongol Relations in the 13th and 14th Century, in: CHINA AMONG EQUALS - THE MIDDLE KINGDOM AND ITS NEIGHBORS, 10th - 14th CENTURIES, EDITED BY MORRIS ROSSABI, Chapter 10, University of California Press - Berkeley - Los Angeles – London, pp.281-310.

...We must not forget also that, as a young man and for many years, Chinggis Khan had been a client and an ally of the Kereyid court, and that he must inevitably have been exposed to Turkish culture through this close association. It is perhaps not fortuitous that the very title he assumed, Chinggis Khan, is of Turkish origin [8]...

http://www.kyrgyz.ru...p?showtopic=263

This post has been edited by Akskl: 25 December 2008 - 07:14 PM

[DearCoolZ]

Quote

thee question you need to ask yourself is.. what IS the difference between Turkic and Mongol tribes? physically they are the same, life styles similar, and even language has many similarities.

Saying physically they are the same is a bit straching. Originally,the turks and mongols were not the same people

From the Chinese records that The Original Turkic people(Ancient Tujue) looked nothing like the Mongols with coclored deep socket eyes, hairy, long face, quite tell. wheres the Mongols have pretty flat face,round face, not tell but stocky,lack of body hair.

The Mongol looking Turkic people are prolly mixed with the Mongols

Turkic people











Mongols

This post has been edited by DearCoolZ: 22 April 2006 - 09:57 PM

[Karakhan]

DearCoolZ, on Apr 23 2006, 02:55 AM, said:

Saying physically they are the same is a bit straching. Originally,the turks and mongols were not the same people

From the Chinese records that The Original Turkic people(Ancient Tujue) looked nothing like the Mongols with coclored deep socket eyes, hairy, long face, quite tell. wheres the Mongols have pretty flat face,round face, not tell but stocky,lack of body hair.

No. Chinese records generally reflect a time when Turkic peoples already started mixing. Genetic research has shown that the ancient Turks are indeed Mongoloid. Furthermore the last picture of your Mongolian example isn't Mongolian. She is either Kazakh or Kyrgyz based on the clothing. Ethnic groups such as the Nenets who are Uralic, have mongoloid features not because they mixed with Mongols, but with Turkic invaders. The example sof Turks you used are obviously those who have strong admixtures of Indo-European ethnicities. While it is difficult to judge where they lie racially as most Turkic groups west of the Caspian are almost pure Caucausoids or Indo Europeans, those near the Volga being more Uralic, and those near the Altai did have a long history with Mongols.. it is certain that they were similar to the Mongols, down to the rounder face and smaller eyes. European records of Attila also gave a similar description of some one with Mongoloid characteristics.

[Toluy]

We must remember that Turk is not a name of ethnicity but a union. Turks is necessarily look like neither caucasoid nor mongoloid.