[kaixin]

I keep reading rumors that his mother (a Turkish Muslim princess) was a bride of the last Song emperor before Mongol emperor Khoshila took her away as his own.

Later, the last Song emperor became a monk and committed suicide under suspect conditions. Could this have been related to the Yuan Mongol emperor's real progeny? Also the last Mongol emperor was different from other Yuan rulers. He was weak and feeble and lived to a much older age. But, he also had an intense hate for Han people that he tried to wipe out Chinese with the top 5 most popular surnames. One can only guess why this much hate

[kaixin]

His descendants still exist in Inner Mongolia. Maybe geneticists should conduct DNA tests on them to see if they really are related to Song imperial line or Genghis Khan? The same with the Aixinjielo clan in Manchuria. Since we also hear rumors of Qianlong's real pedigree, maybe they should also test to see if they are Han or Man?

[tianzhuwoye]

kaixin, on May 16 2005, 07:20 AM, said:

His descendants still exist in Inner Mongolia.  Maybe geneticists should conduct DNA tests on them to see if they really are related to Song imperial line or Genghis Khan?  The same with the Aixinjielo clan in Manchuria.  Since we also hear rumors of Qianlong's real pedigree, maybe they should also test to see if they are Han or Man?

Problem here is that the terms 'Han' and 'Manchu' aren't as scientific or genetic as they are political terms used by the Qing to classify its peoples. These terms come to us today heavily influenced by their usage during the Qing, obviously with the case of 'Manchu' since Huangtaiji virtually invented the word, and many of today's 'Han' are Han because the Qing said they were- on grounds far removed from DNA linkages or whatever as the concept wasn't exactly real big back then. Regardless, taking today's terms and applying them back to the Qing or the Mongol Empire won't change their original significance, which, while forming the foundations of their modern usage, was something very different than their understood definitions today.

Also 满 'Man' never existed as the name of a people, and is best understood as an abbreviation or an overextension of Chinese grammar rules to a foreign word. The term was originally 'Manju' 满洲 and 满族 is a new invention. Consider referring to the 维吾尔族 as "维人" or, from a different angle, calling the 朝鲜族 "鲜族" borders on insult (even if a few steps up from 高丽邦子). This would be a minor semantic issue if the use of 'Man' as the name of an 'ethnicity' didn't tend to imply the neglect of historicizing that it usually does.

[norenxaq]

[quote name='kaixin' date='May 15 2005, 04:17 PM']
>I keep reading rumors that his mother (a Turkish Muslim princess) was a bride of the last Song >emperor before Mongol emperor Khoshila took her away as his own.

what was her name and genealogy? If the Mongol you mean is Khubilai Khan, he set the Song Emperess up
in her own residence out of respect. I have found no suggestion that she was in his harem
in any capacity

[kaixin]

^No.

When the Mongols chased the southern Song court all the way down to Guangdong, one of the child emperors were captured and sent to Kublai's court in Beijing. He was later raised in Tibet and was given a Turkish Muslim princess as a wife. Later, one of Kublai's grandson had a attraction to this lady and took her away from the ex-last Song emperor. She was pregnant that same year and bore a son who later become Toghon Timur, the last Yuan Mongol ruler of China.

His paternity has always been in doubt by historians. Many suspect his real father was the ex-Song emperor. Because the same year Toghon ascended to the throne, the ex-Song emperor retired to a monastery and became a monk. He committed suicide shortly afterwards. This leaves a lot of suspicion IMHO.

[norenxaq]

[quote name='kaixin' date='May 15 2005, 10:59 PM']
^No.

>When the Mongols chased the southern Song court all the way down to Guangdong, one of the >child emperors were captured and sent to Kublai's court in Beijing.

what was his name?

>He was later raised in Tibet and was given a Turkish Muslim princess as a wife. Later, one of >Kublai's grandson

which grandson? was Chingis (kubilai's only son that I've seen) his father? if not, who was?

>had a attraction to this lady and took her away from the ex-last Song emperor. She was >pregnant that same year and bore a son who later become Toghon Timur, the last Yuan Mongol >ruler of China.

>His paternity has always been in doubt by historians. Many suspect his real father was the ex->Song emperor.

the ex-Song Emperor being?

[kaixin]

^Emperor Gongdi (Zhao Deyou) of the Song.

[sima old bandit]

kaixin, on May 16 2005, 12:17 AM, said:

Later, the last Song emperor became a monk and committed suicide under suspect conditions.  Could this have been related to the Yuan Mongol emperor's real progeny?  Also the last Mongol emperor was different from other Yuan rulers.  He was weak and feeble and lived to a much older age.  But, he also had an intense hate for Han people that he tried to wipe out Chinese with the top 5 most popular surnames.  One can only guess why this much hate

Great... another people loving ethnic Han ruler.