[Borjigin Ayurbarwada]

I have some uncertainty about their position. For example, which one has a higher position in Daoism, Yuan Shi Tien Zun(supreme patriarch of primordial) or Lao Zi(tai shan Lao Jun) and what is each of their roles?

[zelbest]

Im pretty sure lao zi is the same lao zi from the late zhou/spring and autum warring state period. He is supposedly to be the founder of daoism, and IIRC from Shi Ji it says that he lived to be 150 years old. :o

[Yun]

The highest-ranking gods in Daoism are the three Exalted Gods of Heaven (Tianzun 天尊), also known as the Three Pure Ones (Sanqing 三清). Their names are Yuanshi Tianzun 元始天尊, Lingbao Tianzun 灵宝天尊, and Daode Tianzun 道德天尊. Among these three, Yuanshi Tianzun ranks highest, but Daode Tianzun is better-known among Daoists because he is none other than Laozi, also known as Taishang Laojun 太上老君.

In the earliest forms of Daoism, the Tianzun system did not yet exist, and Laozi was exalted as the highest god. This was the case in the Wudoumi Dao sect (or Tianshi/Heavenly Master sect) of Zhang Daoling at the end of the Eastern Han, and also in Kou Qianzhi's reformation of the Heavenly Master sect in the Northern Wei. However, in the early 6th century, the Tianzun system is first mentioned in the "Diagram of Ranks for the Spirits" (Zhenling Weiye Tu 真灵位业图) written by the famous Daoist Tao Hongjing of the Southern Dynasties. In this book, Yuanshi Tianzun is clearly described as the highest god of all.

However, Tao Hongjing's system named the second and third-ranking gods as Shangqing Gaosheng Taishang Yuchen Yuanhuang Dadaojun 上清高圣玉晨元皇大道君 and Taiji Jinque Dijun 太极金阙帝君 respectively, and Taishang Laojun (Laozi) was only ranked fourth. It was only in the Tang dynasty that the system evolved into its present form.

The earliest form of Yuanshi Tianzun in Daoist mythology is Yuanshi Tianwang 元始天王 (the First King of Heaven), mentioned in the "Book in a Pillow" 《枕中书》 by the 4th century Daoist Ge Hong. The Daoist creation myth as told by Ge Hong says that at the beginning of the universe when all was formless and void, only Yuanshi Tianwang, the "Spirit of Heaven and Earth", was roaming in the void. Later when things began to take shape, Yuanshi Tianwang resided in the centre of Heaven, breathing the air above and bending down to drink the springs of the earth below. After yet another series of cosmic cycles, Yuanshi Tianwang mated with the Virgin of the Great Origin (Taiyuan Yunu 太元玉女) and produced the God of Heaven (Tianhuang 天皇) and the Queen Mother of the West (Xiwangmu 西王母). Tianhuang was the father of the God of Earth (Dihuang 地皇), and Dihuang was the father of the God of Man (Renhuang 人皇). These three are collectively known as the Three Huang (Sanhuang 三皇) in one version of the Chinese creation myth. Renhuang was the ancestor of Fuxi, Nuwa and Shennong (who are the Three Huang in another version of the myth).

[Borjigin Ayurbarwada]

So according to Daoism, Yu Huang is the son of Yuan Shi Tien zun? Thats interesting, so Yuan Shi Tien zun is in fact the greatest of all beens.

Also to some novels, its odd that Yuan Shi Tien zun was only mentioned once(from what I've seen) in Journey to the West(xi You Ji) and many other daoists seem to have a more important role. While in Feng Shen, he seem to be highest along with Lao Zi.(In Xi You, Lao zi is pretty week. Thats odd since some other anonomous dao such as the one who owns the Ginsen tree seem to be tougher.)

[MengTzu]

Yun, on Jul 22 2004, 05:52 AM, said:

The highest-ranking gods in Daoism are the three Exalted Gods of Heaven (Tianzun 天尊), also known as the Three Pure Ones (Sanqing 三清). Their names are Yuanshi Tianzun 元始天尊, Lingbao Tianzun 灵宝天尊, and Daode Tianzun 道德天尊. Among these three, Yuanshi Tianzun ranks highest, but Daode Tianzun is better-known among Daoists because he is none other than Laozi, also known as Taishang Laojun 太上老君.

But I've also read that Lao Zi 一氣化三清, what does that mean?

[Borjigin Ayurbarwada]

3 pure ones are both elemental forces and deities, the former is what you are refering to.

[MengTzu]

warhead, on Jan 9 2006, 09:09 PM, said:

3 pure ones are both elemental forces and deities, the former is what you are refering to.

So did Lao Zi "create" (hua) the 3 Purities with one breath? If so, isn't he also one of the 3 Purities? How did he "create" (hua) himself?

[Borjigin Ayurbarwada]

I only see that in the novel Feng Sheng Yang Yi. But then again, you know how legends spread, they change into different tributaries.

[MengTzu]

warhead, on Jan 9 2006, 10:17 PM, said:

I only see that in the novel Feng Sheng Yang Yi. But then again, you know how legends spread, they change into different tributaries.

Tell me if the following is right, and please add other important details if you can:

The Three Purities are three manifestations of Tao.

Yuan Shi Tian Zun, who existed in the "original chaos," divided the world into Heaven and Earth and placed things in order.

Ling Bao Tian Zun learned from Yuan Shi Tian Zun and in turn taught the world.

Dao De Tian Zun is the same as Lao Zi, a.k.a. Tai Shang Lao Jun.

In addition, two questions:

1) What are the things that the Tian Zun's taught and where can I read them?

2) I have read a version that's something like this (though I might be mistaken about certain parts): Tai Shang Lao Jun "created" (hua) Yuan Shi Tian Zun and Ling Bao Tian Zun, and then finally placed himself at the right as Dao De Tian Zun. What do you think about this (if you have heard of a similar version, place correct the mistakes I made in describing this version.)

[Borjigin Ayurbarwada]

It depends on the version of the Dao Zang. Have you read my Tai Shang Lao Jun Kai Tian Jing?

[MengTzu]

warhead, on Jan 10 2006, 10:22 PM, said:

It depends on the version of the Dao Zang. Have you read my Tai Shang Lao Jun Kai Tian Jing?

Can you give me the link of that thread?

[Borjigin Ayurbarwada]

http://www.chinahist...?showtopic=9048

I am planning to translate some other texts when I have time, including the Mahayana sutras which are still quite rare in the west which is more focused on the Theravada tradition. The complete Mahayana tradition survive only in the Chinese language

[Craig]

warhead, on Jan 10 2006, 05:18 PM, said:

http://www.chinahist...?showtopic=9048

I am planning to translate some other texts when I have time, including the Mahayana sutras which are still quite rare in the west which is more focused on the Theravada tradition. The complete Mahayana tradition survive only in the Chinese language

I don't think thats true. The emphasis in the west has been the Mahayana and the Upanishads have recieved ample exposure here. Organizations such as the Vedanta Society have been a font of the Mahayana for many years.

[MengTzu]

Craig, on Jan 12 2006, 09:58 PM, said:

I don't think thats true. The emphasis in the west has been the Mahayana and the Upanishads have recieved ample exposure here. Organizations such as the Vedanta Society have been a font of the Mahayana for many years.

Yeah, and besides, Zen (Ch'an) is very prominent in Western Buddhism, and it is Mahayana.

[zaitian]

MengTzu, on Jan 8 2006, 05:27 AM, said:

But I've also read that Lao Zi 一氣化三清, what does that mean?

Can it mean that 3 of them are 同一鼻孔出气。