[snowybeagle]

Does anyone have details/maps of the Wala's (瓦剌) invasion of Ming Dynasty in 1449?

Specifically, how did they break through the defences/passes of the Great Wall and threaten the capital?

[Yun's note: The Walas are better known in English as the Oirat Mongols.]

[Sephodwyrm]

Well, by the time of Emperor Yingzong of Ming the garrison was in utmost corruption and nearly beyond any hope of revival. Trust a few generations of Confucian outlooks to destroy national defense.

[Yun]

Here is an article in Chinese with a map of the Oirat attack on Beijing:

http://military.chin...4/12338875.html

The Oirat main body crossed the Great Wall at Datong, defeating the defending garrison of the city in battle and killing its generals. Ming Yingzong's expedition against the Oirats was meant to relieve Datong, but the vanguard suffered a crushing defeat and the retreating army of 500,000 was annihilated by the Oirats, with Yingzong taken prisoner.

Two months later, the Oirats made their move against Beijing. Esen, the Oirat leader, led 100,000 cavalry eastwards from Datong to Baiyangkou, and then south to capture Zijing Pass on the inner line of the Great Wall. From there, the Oirat advance northeast to strike at Beijing.

At the same time, 20,000 Oirats attacked Gubeikou and 50,000 Oirats attacked Juyong Pass in the east, to divert Ming troops from Beijing. However, these points were successfully defended by their Ming garrisons.

[snowybeagle]

Thanks for the link provided.

I tried to search unitedcn.com yesterday but the site wasn't available.

Found a couple more maps:
Part 1 : Oirats won at Tumu


Part 2 : Ming repelled Oirats from the Capital

[General_Zhaoyun]

For those who might not be well-informed about the "incidence of Tumu" (土木之变), I should slightly explain.

Basically, after Emperor Yongle, the eunuch started to gain power. By Emperor Ming Yingzong (明英宗)'s time, the eunuch Wang Zhen (王振) became the most powerful eunuch and controlled the military and political power, taking advantage of the fact that Ming Yingzong was only 9 years.

In 1449, Wala (Oirat Mongols) invaded Ming. Under no preparation, Wang Zhen forced Ying Zong to dispatch 500,000 troops to defend Da Tong (大同). But scout reported that Da Tong was captured by Qirat Mongols and Ming troops retreated to Tu Mu Bao 土木堡 (today's Hebei province, western Huai Lei).

The Oirat troops attacked Tu Mu Bao and Ming was forced to fight and encountered much losses in casualities. Some 50 officials were killed and Ying Zong was taken hostage and Wang Zhen was also killed. This historical event is known as "incidence of Tumu" (土木之变)

After this news of Yingzong being taken hostage spreaded to the Ming court, the court was shocked. The empress announced that the emperor throne should be passed to Zhu Qiyu (朱祈钰), Ying Zong's brother. At the same time, they also discussed on how to deal with Qirat's attack.

Yu Qian (于谦), the military commander, proposed repelling Qirat at all effrot and punish all the factions of Wang Zhen (and his eunuch forces). Shortly after, Zhu Qiyu was enthroned as Emperor Daizong and Yingzong became Taishanghuang. The Qirat had attempted threaten the Ming court by taking hostage of Yingzong, after realising that this ploy didn't work, they then released Yingzong.

[Yun]

Quote

Basically, after Emperor Yongle, the eunuch started to gain power.

Actually, they were already powerful under Yongle - otherwise, why would the treasure-ship fleets all be commanded by eunuchs? What changed is that instead of them being dependent on the emperor, the emperors became dependent on them.

[ih8eurocentrix]

was the ming great wall made before or after this disaster?

[General_Zhaoyun]

ih8eurocentrix, on Dec 16 2005, 11:35 AM, said:

was the ming great wall made before or after this disaster?

The construction/repair of the ming great wall had already begun before this disaster, if I'm not wrong. I read that it has already begun since Yongle period. In fact, during Yongle period, there are some more military campaigns against the Wala.

[ih8eurocentrix]

how did they break through the big wall

[jiangji]

ih8eurocentrix, on Dec 16 2005, 04:56 AM, said:

how did they break through the big wall

I think the mongol use the captured Emperor to make the Ming general to open the gate. The Ming general has no choice because they will be executed anyway if they disobey the Emperor.

[Yun]

Quote

I think the mongol use the captured Emperor to make the Ming general to open the gate.

Are you referring to the Zijing Pass? Can someone provide more details of this incident if it did take place?

[snowybeagle]

jiangji, on Dec 16 2005, 01:13 PM, said:

ih8eurocentrix, on Dec 16 2005, 12:56 PM, said:

how did they break through the big wall

I think the mongol use the captured Emperor to make the Ming general to open the gate. The Ming general has no choice because they will be executed anyway if they disobey the Emperor.

That was not how it happened.
As Yun mentioned in post #2, the Oirats had already breached the pass at the Great Wall before the battle of Tumu they captured the emperor.

See the maps I posted in post #4.

AD 1449
7th month
11th day : The Oirat leader Esen defeated the Ming forces at Mao'Er Zhuang (猫儿庄).
15th day : The poorly led and supported Ming garrison at Datong (大同) was routed at YangHe (阳和). The Great Wall was effectively breached.

I suspect at that time, the Great Wall along that particular area was not the most strongly fortified type which enable defenders to resist attackers easily. In any case, that region was traditionally considered as beyond the Passes (塞外). The actual defensive walls were those indicated by the inner lines in the map, with Passes like JuYong Pass (居庸关).

Maps showing unbroken lines of walls along the Great Wall could be quite misleading.

Much of the walls were not intended to keep out invaders like the Maginot Line (people could climb over the wall and it was impossible to guard every section), but to make it more difficult for horse-mounted raiders to cross and return with their loots.

At Datong, the defence relied on the fortress of JùMénBŭ (拒门堡), which was actually one of the four garrisons beyond the Passes (塞外四堡) designed as advanced bulwarks protecting the Great Wall.

[snowybeagle]

Yun, on Dec 16 2005, 02:53 PM, said:

Are you referring to the Zijing Pass? Can someone provide more details of this incident if it did take place?

I don't think it did.

The ZiJing Pass (紫荆关) was breached when a Ming traitor, the captured eunuch Xi Ning (喜宁) who was familiar with the military deployment at the Pass, showed the Oirats a mountain route which enabled the Pass to be attacked from the front and the rear. Esen arrived on 9th day of the 10th month to take personal command. The defending generals Han Qing (韩青) and Sun Xiang (孙祥) were killed in action.

[Yun]

More on Zijing Pass:
http://www.meet-grea...wcn/egwcn10.htm

I would agree that the Great Wall of that time was not as well fortified and defended as the Ming wall we see today. It was mostly a rammed-earth wall without parapets or towers:

Quote

Most of the old Great Wall, which had been built from earth and rubble, was low, not very thick and apt to crumble under the wear of time. On top of the wall were a number of elevated stone platforms between which, however, there were no satisfactory links so that they could provide mutual support. Soldiers fighting from these platforms were fully exposed, and therefore highly vulnerable. There were also no places for storing grain and arms. In short, the wall was hard to defend.

From http://www.meet-grea...gwcn/egwcn6.htm

The wall was only improved to its present level after Tan Lun and Qi Jiguang were assigned to reinforce it in 1568.

This post has been edited by Yun: 16 December 2005 - 03:46 AM

[snowybeagle]

Uhm, could my post #13 and Yun's post #14 be switched around or something?

I saw Yun's question in post #11 only after sending in post #12, this type of thing do happen in forums like this ...

[From Yun: No probs, I've edited my Post #14]

This post has been edited by Yun: 16 December 2005 - 03:47 AM