[Daniel]

In the early 16th century, Emperor Wu Zong entrusted most governmental affairs to a group of eunuchs known as the Eight Tigers because of their corruption and ferocity. Liu Jin was the leader of the Eight Tigers and for some years he effectively ran the Ming court. He controlled access to the Emperor, allowing nothing to pass to Wu Zong through the Office of Transmission until he had reviewed it first. He destroyed all his real and potential opponents at court with trumped up charges. He placed his own men at key positions in the Imperial Guard and decided policy while Wu Zong had fun.

At this time China had three intelligence agencies: the Imperial Guard, the Eastern Chamber, and, the most powerful, the Western Chamber. Liu Jin created a fourth intelligence agency, the Inner Chamber, whose task was to collect damaging information on all government officials. (Comparisons to Reinhard Heydrich and Salon Kitty spring instantly to my mind).

Yet, in 1510, Liu Jin was executed for plotting a coup against the Emperor, and the huge treasure horde he had amassed from bribes and victims was seized. How did that happen? Seemingly, Liu already controlled the state for all practical purposes. Why would he want to pull off a coup? And, whatever reason he had for plotting a coup, how did it fail? He seemingly had every possible advantage a coup plotter could wish for: control of state intelligence and all state secrets, his rivals at court destroyed, the trust of the Emperor.

And two other questions come to my mind. First, what happened to the other seven Tigers? Did their heads roll beside Liu's? Did any of them have a hand in his downfall?

Second, what became of the Inner Chamber? Was it dissolved when its founder died? Or if not, how long did it continue, and what role did it play in later Chinese history?

[Alexander39]

From what you tell us Daniel i would think that Liu Jin were the victim off both his own succes and something called an accidental conspiracy, he createt many enemies (Like Heydrich) but was too feared to be confrontet directly (Like Heydrich) even his other compagnions would not dare go against him (Himmeler & Bormann feared Heydrich even throu they were officially above him in rank and status) So what happens if one off the cliques find out about a conspiracy against Liu Jin/Heydrich or maybe several finds incriminating evidence against them (Conspirators). You shut your mouth and turn your back and hope the best while making sure you have very good plausible deniabillity, *Who ..ME noooo... i where out hunting traitors... SEE.. (Pulls foreward several crimminals/victims)..*

[poirot]

Liu Jin fell into the trap of Yang Yi Qing <杨一清>, a top Ming official and military commander. Yang Yi Qing - a great man - used his wits to rid the Ming off one of its biggest poisons. His method: to rid of poison using poison (Chinese proverb yi du gong du). Yang recruited one of Liu's seven Tigers, Zhang Yong, into his plot. Because Liu was overly greedy and corrupt, his powerful claws also threatened the interests of his own associates. Seizing upon this rift between Liu and his subordinates, Yang carefully arranged for Zhang Yong to fall into his plans, and urged Zhang to accuse Liu Jin of insubordination against the emperor. The plan worked suprisingly well, and Yang masterfully defeated Liu Jin by inciting a feud from within the ranks of imperial eunuchs.

As an addition, it is interesting to note that Yang Yi Qing <杨一清> (1454-1530) was a well reputed scholar, general, governer, and administrator. He helped to counter the corrupt atmosphere caused by Liu Jin by promoting and recommending able and competent generals and officials. Yang reached the highest rank and was enobled Grand Protector of the Prince <太子太保>. He was well respected by his contemporaries.

[Daniel]

Thanks, poirot, a very useful answer. I take it, then, that the accusation of a coup plot was likely a fiction of Zhang Yong's?

Yang must have been a great man indeed, or at least a master politician, to survive the rise of Jiang Bin to replace Liu Jin.

[poirot]

No problem Daniel.

Yes, I believe that Zhang Yong's accusations of Liu Jin were false to a large extent, but nevertheless a great work for the sake of the Ming Dynasty. Yet, I believe it was probably true that upon opening up Liu Jin's estate, soldiers did find a dragon clad robe.

As to Yang Yi Qing, a great man. The emperor Jia Jing, who succeeded the playboy Zheng De, greatly admired and respected Yang, who by then approached his seventies. Yang was given the highest honors in the court and made a member of the cabinet. My knowledge of Jiang is not extensive, so apologize here. I do know, however, that Yang did not die peacefully. Several monthes before his death, he was wrongfully accused by fellow cabinet ministers, and forced to resign. At his deathbed, Yang, full of anguish, wrote a letter to the Emperor Jia Jing explaining that he was framed by corrupt officials. The good news: Yang was posthumously honoured by the emperor and given the title Wen Xiang.

[Bates]

Daniel, on Jun 4 2005, 12:07 AM, said:

In the early 16th century, Emperor Wu Zong entrusted most governmental affairs to a group of eunuchs known as the Eight Tigers because of their corruption and ferocity.  Liu Jin was the leader of the Eight Tigers and for some years he effectively ran the Ming court.  He controlled access to the Emperor, allowing nothing to pass to Wu Zong through the Office of Transmission until he had reviewed it first.  He destroyed all his real and potential opponents at court with trumped up charges.  He placed his own men at key positions in the Imperial Guard and decided policy while Wu Zong had fun.

At this time China had three intelligence agencies: the Imperial Guard, the Eastern Chamber, and, the most powerful, the Western Chamber.  Liu Jin created a fourth intelligence agency, the Inner Chamber, whose task was to collect damaging information on all government officials.  (Comparisons to Reinhard Heydrich and Salon Kitty spring instantly to my mind).

Yet, in 1510, Liu Jin was executed for plotting a coup against the Emperor, and the huge treasure horde he had amassed from bribes and victims was seized.  How did that happen?  Seemingly, Liu already controlled the state for all practical purposes.  Why would he want to pull off a coup?  And, whatever reason he had for plotting a coup, how did it fail?  He seemingly had every possible advantage a coup plotter could wish for: control of state intelligence and all state secrets, his rivals at court destroyed, the trust of the Emperor.

And two other questions come to my mind.  First, what happened to the other seven Tigers?  Did their heads roll beside Liu's?  Did any of them have a hand in his downfall?

Second, what became of the Inner Chamber?  Was it dissolved when its founder died?  Or if not, how long did it continue, and what role did it play in later Chinese history?

May I disagree. The so-called Eight Tigers were not fierce, and only a very few were influential. Liu was the only real villain. The others were corrupt (but so were most people in those days) and they were corrupt because they were workiing for the Emperor who was getting the lions share of the booty. He was even more corrupt than any of the Tigers.

[poirot]

Bates, on Jun 25 2005, 08:23 PM, said:

May I disagree. The so-called Eight Tigers were not fierce, and only a very few were influential. Liu was the only real villain. The others were corrupt (but so were most people in those days) and they were corrupt because they were workiing for the Emperor who was getting the lions share of the booty. He was even more corrupt than any of the Tigers.

I agree. The Emperor Wu Zong or Zheng De was a first class playboy. Glad he did not live too long.

[jiangji]

poirot, on Jun 26 2005, 02:35 AM, said:

I agree.  The Emperor Wu Zong or Zheng De was a first class playboy.  Glad he did not live too long.

Unfortunely, Ming dynasty in the 16th century was ruled by weak and lazy rulers except Longqing Emperor. So, Zheng de dying earlier doesn't seem to improve the situation a lot.

[poirot]

jiangji, on Jun 25 2005, 09:42 PM, said:

Unfortunely, Ming dynasty in the 16th century was ruled by weak and lazy rulers except Longqing Emperor. So, Zheng de dying earlier doesn't seem to improve the situation a lot.

And more unfortunately for the Ming, Longqing Emperor did not sit on the throne for more than 10 years. Jia Jing and Wang Li lived too long.

This post has been edited by poirot: 25 June 2005 - 09:52 PM

[jiangji]

poirot, on Jun 26 2005, 02:50 AM, said:

And more unfortunately for the Ming, Longqing Emperor did not sit on the throne for more than 10 years.  Jia Jing and Wang Li lived too long.   

This is why many view Ming dynasty a big failure. But, I think many Ming emperors in the 15th century are very capable.

This post has been edited by jiangji: 25 June 2005 - 09:56 PM

[poirot]

jiangji, on Jun 25 2005, 09:55 PM, said:

This is why many view Ming dynasty a big failure. But, I think many Ming emperors in the 15th century are very capable.

Here is how I would rank Ming Emperors in terms of capability and accomplishments:

1. Hong Wu (Tai Zu)

2. Yong Le (Cheng Zu)

3. Ren Zong

4. Xuan De (Xuan Zong)

5. Hong Zhi (Xiao Zong)

6. Long Qing

7. Cong Zhen

Here is how I would rank Ming Emperors in terms of incapability and apathy:

1. Tian Qi (Xi Zong) - would have made a skilled carpenter

2. Jia Jing - Ming Dynasty would have florished without him hehe

3. Wan Li (Shen Zong) - had a high IQ but too lazy for state affairs

4. Zheng De (Wu Zong) - big playboy

5. Zheng Tong - 500000 Ming soldiers crushed! Had to execute Yu Jin

In summary, Ming Emperors would score very high on an IQ test, but low on an EQ test!

This post has been edited by poirot: 25 June 2005 - 10:05 PM

[Bates]

The Inner Branch Depot

Liu Jin, the eunuch who had risen to considerable power, and who was the leader of the notorious “Eight Tigers,” observed the success of the Gestapo-like Western Depot, and how much favor it gained in the eyes of the emperor. He also noted how much approval the other nefarious and infamous Eastern Depot was getting because of the intelligence it gathered for the emperor by means of torture. He decided, therefore, that he must have a finger in the pie. He recommended that a third security apparatus be set up, one that could provide specific protection against direct dangers to the throne and to the emperor’s personal being, and one that could deal with the palace courtiers, senior ministers and officials. This appealed to the emperor and the idea was approved, and an Inner Branch Depot, the Neixingchang, was established and Liu was ordered to personally direct this agency and Embroidered-uniform Guards were allocated to him. Furthermore, Liu’s silver tongue persuaded the emperor to allow this Inner Branch Depot to supervise the other two Depots!

The reign of terror inculcated by the Eastern and Western Depots was now widened and was extended upwards. Again, suspects were rounded up on the flimsiest of excuses, even senior officials. Heavy beatings at court were the order of the day. Many died. Among the victims of the severe beatings were an Imperial Seal Minister and his deputy, a Vice-minister of Works, and a Censor. Two other Censors, who were found guilty of only minor crimes, were strangled. Soldiers and civilians were arrested. Many died as a result of the beatings and torture inflicted by the thugs of the Embroidered-uniform Guards of the Inner Branch Depot and one report states that the total amounted to several thousands.

Extortion was just as commonplace as before, and Liu Jin became greedy and overstepped the mark, and took more for himself than the emperor was comfortable with. He was arrested and banished. Five of the senior Embroidered-uniform Guards of the Inner Branch Depot were indicted and fifty-seven of the staff were arrested. The Inner Branch Depot was now closed.

The director of the Eastern Depot, Qui, survived the fall of Liu Jin, but lost his job in the melee. Bowing to pressure, the emperor closed the Western Depot too. But the emperor did not lose his regard for his Western Depot’s Director, Gu Dayong, nor his fondness for the depot’s activities. Only two years later he considered reopening the Western Depot with Gu in charge. There was such vehement resistance to this idea he reluctantly abandoned the proposal and the Western Depot disappeared, never to rise again.

In the next few years several eunuch directors were appointed to manage the Eastern Depot’s Embroidered-uniform Guards, and enjoyed the patronage of the Zhengde emperor. However, when he died they did not survive the purge that followed. Liu Jin was caught up in this purge too, but received the mild punishment of being sent to burn incense at the Hongwu tomb.

From now on the Eastern Depot reclaimed its investigative monopoly and it remained in force right until the end of the Ming dynasty.

[jiangji]

poirot, on Jun 26 2005, 03:04 AM, said:

Here is how I would rank Ming Emperors in terms of incapability and apathy:

1. Tian Qi (Xi Zong) - would have made a skilled carpenter

2. Jia Jing - Ming Dynasty would have florished without him hehe

3. Wan Li (Shen Zong) - had a high IQ but too lazy for state affairs

4. Zheng De (Wu Zong) - big playboy

5. Zheng Tong - 500000 Ming soldiers crushed!  Had to execute Yu Jin 

In summary, Ming Emperors would score very high on an IQ test, but low on an EQ test!

I would rank them in term of the damage they causes:

1. Wan Li --- Spend at least over 15 millions taels decorating his Tomb and palace. This does not include others too. Many simply claim that the Ming-Japan war in 1592 bankrupted the nation (10 millions taels). However, this claim is not really true since Wanli spend several times than that for his personal pleasure.

2. Zheng De --- not just big playboy but a great spender too

Actually, Jia jing reign didn't actually bring a lot of damage to the Ming dynasty compare to wan li or zheng de. Trade actually boom during his reign.

This post has been edited by jiangji: 25 June 2005 - 10:32 PM

[poirot]

jiangji, on Jun 25 2005, 10:24 PM, said:

I would rank them in term of the damage they causes:

1. Wan Li --- Spend at least over 15 millions taels decorating his Tomb and palace. This does not include others too. Many simply claim that the Ming-Japan war in 1592 bankrupted the nation (10 millions taels). However, this claim is not really true since Wanli spend several times than that for his personal pleasure.

2. Zheng De --- not just big playboy but a great spender too

Actually, Jia jing reign didn't actually bring a lot of damage to the Ming dynasty compare to wan li or zheng de. Trade actually boom during his reign.

Tian Qi brought greater damage at a time when the Ming needed strong and decisive leadership from the top: Wei Zhong Xian's enunch faction, Manchu threat, etc. The diasaters that he brought led to the bottomless pit faced by Chong Zhen, who actually made an effort to savalge the empire. Wan Li was actually quite a promising emperor during his first ten years' reign, when Zhang Ju Zheng was regent. As to Jia Jing, any better emperor would have done better. It is a great misfortune that the two longest reigning emperors of the Ming Dynasty were Wan Li (48 yrs) and Jia Jing (46 yrs).

This post has been edited by poirot: 26 June 2005 - 03:05 AM

[Daniel]

Bates, on Jun 25 2005, 07:23 PM, said:

May I disagree. The so-called Eight Tigers were not fierce, and only a very few were influential.

Certainly. My description of the Eight Tigers as fierce is based only on a single secondary source, Bai Shouyi's An Outline History of China, which I have found to be less than perfectly accurate. I was basing my description of the Eight Tigers on this passage from Bai, which can be found on the Web here. "Emperor Wu Zong placed his trust in Liu Jin and seven other eunuchs. Together they were referred to as 'Eight Tigers' because of their brutality and ferociousness." In fact, everything else I said is also taken from Bai.

You may well be right in contradicting Bai; however, I would like to know what your source of information is.

Thanks a million for the information on the Inner Depot, Western Depot, and Eastern Depot! This is exactly what I wanted to know! Where did you find it?

The part that says Liu Jin was arrested and banished is interesting. My understanding was that Liu Jin had been killed by the death of a thousand cuts. Had he actually been banished once before, and restored to power, some time before his execution?