[Iamnick]

I read in a note to a version of ROTK that gongsun Zan did historically fight against Lu Bu, but that instead of Zhang Fei rescuing him and dueling Bu, instead it was Zhao Yun that dueled Lu Bu, resulting in Bu stabbing Yun's shoulder and Yun retreating. This sounds like something that would be more well known of it actually happened, and at this time Yun was hardly well known. I find it highly unlikely, but I felt I would present it here and see if anyone else had heard of it.

[grandeur]

SGZ and ROTK exist making the history quite confusing. Agree?

[General_Zhaoyun]

grandeur, on Feb 9 2006, 02:51 PM, said:

SGZ and ROTK exist making the history quite confusing. Agree?

It's not confusing. SGZ is a chinese history book. RoTK is a chinese literature with 'chinese history theme'. It's a historical fiction with lots of historical myth/inaccuracy.

For those who wants to have indepth study on 3 kingdoms history should read SGZ, since it is historically more accurate.

[grandeur]

The original author was Chen Shou (233-297), who was a native of Anhan of Western Ba. After Jin conquered Shu, Chen became the Gentleman of Works, and was assigned to creating a history of the Three Kingdoms.

Any one know why Luo Guanzhong still wrote romance three kingdom despite Sanguozhi was already there? Could it be that he felt that Sanguozhi was written with limitation because of Chen shou served under Jin dynasty's therefore certain historical fact could not be reveal?

[snowybeagle]

grandeur, on Feb 9 2006, 05:11 PM, said:

Any one know why Luo Guanzhong still wrote romance three kingdom despite Sanguozhi was already there? Could it be that he felt that Sanguozhi was written with limitation because of Chen shou served under Jin dynasty's therefore certain historical fact could not be reveal?

Wikipedia's entry offers a background to the RoTK

Quote

Overview
Stories from the Three Kingdoms period existed in the verbal form before any written compilations. In these popular stories the characters typically took on exaggerated and mythical characteristics, often becoming immortals or supernatural beings with magical powers. With their focus on the history of Han Chinese, the stories grew in popularity during the reign of the foreign Mongol emperors of the Yuan Dynasty (AD 1279-1368). During the succeeding Ming Dynasty an interest in plays and novels resulted in further expansions and retelling of the stories.

The earliest attempt to combine these stories into a written work was San Guo Zhi Ping Hua (三国志评话), published sometime between 1321 and 1323. This version combined themes of magic, myth, and morality to appeal to peasant-class readers. Elements of reincarnation and karma were woven into this version of the story. The decline of the Han Dynasty was therefore traced to the sins of its founding emperor, Emperor Gao, who unjustly executed his three able generals Han Xin, Peng Yue (彭越) and Ying Bu (英布). Han Gao Zu was later reborn as the last Han emperor, Emperor Xian, while the three generals were reincarnated as rulers of the three kingdoms: Han Xin became Cao Cao; Peng Yue became Liu Bei; and Ying Bu became Sun Quan. This time the emperor was to suffer in the hands of Cao Cao.

The Romance of the Three Kingdoms as we know it today was written by Luo Guanzhong sometime between 1330 and 1400 (late Yuan to early Ming period). His novel was written in plain Chinese and was considered the standard text for 300 years. Luo made greater use of available historical records including the Chronicles of the Three Kingdoms compiled by Chen Shou, which covered events from the Yellow Turban Rebellion in AD 184 up to the unification of the three kingdoms under the Jin Dynasty in AD 280. Luo combined this historical knowledge with his gift in storytelling to create a rich tapestry of personalities.

http://zh.wikipedia....%BC%94%E4%B9%89

Quote

起源與版本
三国故事在中国古代民间颇为流行。宋元时代即被搬上舞台，金、元演出的三国剧目达30多种。元代至治年间出现了新安虞氏所刊的《全相三國志平话》。元末明初罗贯中综合民间传说和戏曲、话本，结合陈寿《三國志》和裴松之注的史料，根据他个人对社会人生的体悟，创作了《三國志通俗演义》
...
除《三國志通俗演义》外，他还创作有《隋唐志传》等通俗小说和《赵太祖龙虎风云会》等戏剧。

It seemed that there was a great interest in the stories from the era during the lifetime of Luo GuanZhong.

Even today, the stories of Robin Hood, Homer's Illiad & Odyssey, William Tell, Herakles (Hercules to the uneducated) are retold over and over again, adapted, rewritten etc. by various writers.

[Wujiang]

grandeur, on Feb 9 2006, 03:11 AM, said:

Any one know why Luo Guanzhong still wrote romance three kingdom despite Sanguozhi was already there?

Same reason why Oliver Stone made Alexander and Ridley Scott made Kingdom of Heaven.

Quote

Could it be that he felt that Sanguozhi was written with limitation because of Chen shou served under Jin dynasty's therefore certain historical fact could not be reveal?

Going by that logic, Sun Wukong exists and he helped Tang journey to india where the buddha was living in and fought demon after demon along the way. However because the original journey happened during the Tang dynasty and Tang records are unreliable due to various political considerations therefore 吳承恩 had to write up a new account a few centuries so that certain historical facts could finally be revealed to the world ?

[grandeur]

Of course no, because it is different. A person who written history like Chen shou was not present at the actual scene even though he was the first for the completion of Sanguo. Hence Chen Shou records could not reach 100% of the actual fact. Therefore sage like mencius mentioned that it would be better to have no books than to believe everything that's in them.

My first conclusion is that the history records by Chen Shou is not 100% according to true fact, second is that the RMTK written by Luo Guan Zhong is not 100% fictional.

This post has been edited by grandeur: 09 February 2006 - 11:31 AM

[Yun]

Quote

My first conclusion is that the history records by Chen Shou is not 100% according to true fact, second is that the RMTK written by Luo Guan Zhong is not 100% fictional.

Fair enough. But the percentage of fact in Chen Shou's work is probably far higher than that in Luo Guanzhong's. Chen was writing a record for the imperial court, which may censor some facts but would also demand a high level of accuracy for other facts. Luo was writing for a popular audience who had no earlier exposure to Three Kingdoms history other than operas and folk tales that were already hugely distorted.

Indeed, the stories in ROTK that were based on distorting Chen Shou (or other sources cited in Pei Songzhi's annotation of SGZ) are very easy to spot.

For example, the story about Zhuge Liang turning back five invading armies at the same time after Liu Bei's death (a story that is purely fictional) uses the name of a Xianbei chieftain mentioned in Sanguo Zhi, Hebineng 轲比能. Hebineng did unify the Eastern Xianbei tribes and pledge allegiance to the Wei in 220, but the Wei came to see him as a threat and had him assassinated in 235. But Luo Guangzhong gets both geography and ethnography wrong in his story, by having Hebineng send 100,000 Qiang troops from Liaoxi (which was in Manchuria) to attack Xiping Pass, way in the west in northern Sichuan.

差使往辽东鲜卑国，见国王轲比能，赂以金帛，令起辽西羌兵十万，先从旱路取西平关，此一路也。

As any student of Three Kingdoms history will know, the Qiang were not under Xianbei rule at this time, and Hebineng's power did not extend to anywhere near Sichuan (there were Xianbei tribes living in Gansu/Liangzhou, but they were not under him). Luo Guanzhong goes further and lets Zhuge Liang turn back this army by stationing Ma Chao at Xiping Pass, because Ma's family came from Liangzhou and was respected by the Qiang. He even calls Hebineng a 西番国王 (King of the Western Barbarians), when earlier he had referred to Hebineng as King of 辽东鲜卑国 (the kingdom of the Liaodong Xianbei). Liaodong is, of course, in the northeast and not the west:

臣先知西番国王轲比能引兵犯西平关。臣料马超积祖西川人氏，素得羌人之心，羌人以超为神威天将军。臣已先遣一人，星夜驰檄，令马超紧守西平关，伏四路奇兵，每日交换，以兵拒之。

There are many more examples of how Luo Guanzhong has a poor sense of geography.

[xu huang]

Chapter 101
1) Zhuge Liang dressing up as a god

Chapter 102
1) Only Xiahou Ba was involved in the battle, not all 4 sons of Xiahou Yuan.
2) Deng Ai feigning surrender
3) Guo Huai losing the mechanical animals
Fictional Characters : Qin Ming, Deng Wen, Cen Wei

Chapter 103
1) Sima Yi trapped in Gourd Valley
2) Zhuge Liang invoking the Stars in Wuzhang Plains

Chapter 104
1) Zhuge Liang instructing to place his body in a large coffer
2) Sima Yi saying "Have I still a head?"

Chapter 105
1) Ma Dai slaying Wei Yan
2) Both Wei Yan and Yang Yi sending memorials to the Latter Ruler of Shu

Chapter 106
Fictional Character : Pei Jin

Chapter 107
1) There never was any Ox Head Hill

Chapter 108
None

Chapter 109
1) Sima Zhao trapped in Iron Cage Mountain
2) Jiang Wei's spectacular slaying of Guo Huai
3) Guo Huai's time and location of death do not correspond to history
4) The blood-stained garment of Cao Fang
5) Mi Dang not portrayed correctly as supposed in history
Fictional Character : Ehe Shaoge, Wang Tao

Chapter 110
None

Chapter 111
1) Deng Ai preparing banquet in honor of victory
Fictional Character : Bao Su

Chapter 112
1) Zhuge Dan plotting and winning against Zhu Yi
2) Jiang Wei dueling with Deng Zhong
3) Fu Qian killing Wang Zhen and Li Peng
Fictional Character : Wang Zhen, Li Peng, Chen Jun

Chapter 113
1) The time of the first battle of Arrays between Deng Ai and Jiang Wei is not correct
Fictional Character : Zheng Lun, Dang Jun

Chapter 114
1) Jiang Wei defeating Wei by abandoning his stores
2) Wang Guan kills himself by jumping into Heilongjiang
Fictional Character : Wang Guan

Chapter 115
1) Xi Zheng advising Jiang Wei

Chapter 116
1) Kongming's apparition appearing to Zhong Hui

Chapter 117
1) The stone message: Two fires were just founded; armies pass by here. Two soldiers compete; both soon die."
Fictional Character : Ma Mao

Chapter 118
1) The conversation between Sima Zhao and Jia Chong

Chapter 119
1) Sima Yan entering the Forbidden City armed with a sword
2) Zhang Jie beaten to death
Fictional Character : Zhang Jie

Chapter 120
None






Finally....all done. Sorry for the very late delay.

[Iamnick]

Quote

2) Both Wei Yan and Yang Yi sending memorials to the Latter Ruler of Shu

this did happen historically.

This post has been edited by Iamnick: 18 February 2006 - 07:31 AM

[Sima Zhou]

so, does anyone know where a copy of San Guo Zhi translated to English can be found?

please and thankyou

[xu huang]

Sima Zhou, on Mar 1 2006, 10:20 PM, said:

so, does anyone know where a copy of San Guo Zhi translated to English can be found?

please and thankyou

SGZ is still being translated and it might take a long time before an English book on SGZ is out. Meanwhile, search around the net and you might find some translated bios. I have done Xu Huang's bio and I posted in this forum and now trying to translate the bios of Cao Cao's sons.

This post has been edited by xu huang: 01 March 2006 - 09:52 AM

[Sima Zhou]

Thank you Xu Huang....I supppose I need to find a copy in zhongwen and slog through translating it.........so much for taking the easy route!

[xu huang]

Sima Zhou, on Mar 3 2006, 11:08 PM, said:

Thank you Xu Huang....I supppose I need to find a copy in zhongwen and slog through translating it.........so much for taking the easy route!

No prob...you can go to http://www.3kingdoms...=&threadid=9127 for some translated bios. Kongming.net also have some.

This post has been edited by xu huang: 03 March 2006 - 10:17 AM

[Lukkay]

It'd be cool to have a Sanguo Zhi, I think,

This post has been edited by Lukkay: 26 July 2006 - 03:57 AM