[Klamath]

Well, I repect Shanghaiese enough, but you tried to raise up the grade of clash.
That is what I have said above point to.

[nishishei]

Klamath, on Jun 20 2005, 08:03 AM, said:

Well, I repect Shanghaiese enough, but you tried to raise up the grade of clash.
That is what I have said above point to.

Let me refresh your memory, you wrote: "only white man are their [Shanghainese's] master." Anyone who writes this, is asking for a clash.

You don't need to pretend, because I am not pretending. The Shanghainese dialect is not responsible for divisiveness, it is the attitude that certain people have against different local cultures that creates antagonism and xenophobia on the receiving side. The targeted rap that Shanghai has gotten for the past half century is mostly unjustified, any large city in China (especially our Great Beijing) would otherwise be equally admonished. The capital contribution that Shanghai has given to China during China's most desperate and needing times cannot be overstated. Beijing had a subway as early as the 80's (on who's money, do you think?), while Shanghai barely was able to receive a tax return to build 1 kilometer of subway by the mid 1990's (nearly ALL of Shanghai's revenues went to the Central Government, while being last to receive any government investment or expenditure for city infrastructure). Every Shanghainese can tell you that NOTHING CHANGED from 1949 to 1991 in terms of city infrastructure under the planned economy, even though Shanghai (1% of the population) produced on average over 50% of China's entire revenue during most of the PRC's history. Shanghai was the milk cow of China that was not only underfed, but beaten for its "bourgeois roots". The number of families who suffered under the Communist Party in Shanghai is unmatched in any other major Chinese city. Shanghai's development in the latter half of the 20th century only begun with a 1992 policy where Shanghai was able to keep a percentage of the revenue above a fixed quota that was given to the Central Government and the conditional permission for companies to do business with foreigners. You tell me, in the last century, what has Shanghai and the Jiangnan region given to China, and what has China given to Shanghai and Jiangnan?

And now you come in here in a patronizing manner as if you understand the socioeconomic crisis in China today, as if you understand the problem of China's fragmentation, and tell me that "shanghaihua is outdated" and that for a "Modern and strong China and for Shanghai to be a metropolis... abandoning the local dialect is a wise choice." HOW DARE YOU TELL ME THAT ABANDONING MY MOTHER TONGUE, MY HERITAGE, MY CULTURAL TRADITION, THE LANGUAGE THAT I HAVE INHERITED FROM MY PARENTS AND THEIR PARENTS is "a wise choice." You have no right to decide for me.

[Klamath]

nishishei, on Jun 20 2005, 04:30 PM, said:

You wrote:

Klamath said:

only white man are their [Shanghainese's] master.

You don't need to pretend, because I am not pretending. The Shanghainese dialect is not responsible for divisiveness, it is the attitude that certain people have against different local cultures that creates antagonism and xenophobia on the receiving side. The targeted rap that Shanghai has gotten for the past half century is mostly unjustified, any large city in China (especially our Great Beijing) would otherwise be equally admonished. The capital contribution that Shanghai has given to China during China's most desperate and needing times cannot be overstated. Beijing had a subway as early as the 80's (on who's money, do you think?), while Shanghai barely was able to receive a tax return to build 1 kilometer of subway by the mid 1990's (nearly ALL of Shanghai's revenues went to the Central Government, while being last to receive any government investment or expenditure for city infrastructure). Every Shanghainese can tell you that NOTHING CHANGED from 1949 to 1991 in terms of city infrastructure under the planned economy, even though Shanghai (1% of the population) produced on average over 50% of China's entire revenue during most of the PRC's history. Shanghai was the milk cow of China that was not only underfed, but beaten for its "bourgeois roots". The number of families who suffered under the Communist Party in Shanghai is unmatched in any other major Chinese city. Shanghai's development in the latter half of the 20th century only begun with a 1992 policy where Shanghai was able to keep a percentage of the revenue above a fixed quota that was given to the Central Government and the conditional permission for companies to do business with foreigners. You tell me, in the last century, what has Shanghai and the Jiangnan region given to China, and what has China given to Shanghai and Jiangnan?

Well, well, we don't need to pretend civilized any more. So, it will be equal when you heard "龟儿子”. Did the ghost of Cutural Revolution appeared here?

No chinese would deny the contribution that Shanghai had done, but it is no relevance with the dialect. And without the cheap electic power and gas supply , how could Shanghai be like? Who's the cow feed milk to Shanghai.
When we discuss, of course you can defend for your own dialect your areaic bias. But , do be aware of this, Shanghai is China's shanghai, Chinese's shanghai, and then the people in Shanghai's shanghai, taxpayer's shanghai.
You bash Beijing because you think it is dictatorship that control the resources, but when you keep shanghai as your own, you are conquered by dictatorship at the same time. So ,you are a nationlist no better than the "Me" you imagined.
Shanghai is far away from a metropolis and modern now, although you think it is , so ask some others in U.S, how do they think about their metropolis. Don't be narrow minded, be more open as I always expected.

This post has been edited by nishishei: 20 June 2005 - 03:53 AM

[nishishei]

Klamath, on Jun 20 2005, 08:46 AM, said:

     No chinese would deny the contribution that Shanghai had done, but it is no relevance with the dialect.

It has every relevance with your post and the attitude you hold:

Klamath said:

To be more closed ,or to be more open?
Shanghaiese had ruined their tongue's image by themselves when many third-line factory workers and "intellectual youth" were sent to other provinces. Ask some senior people , you would know what it was? I also heard that when I am in Shanghai, local people call outsiders"乡巴佬“， Hongkong people "港巴子“， Taiwanese"台巴子“，only white man are their master.
Do those fit the in Shanghai , do those fit in a stronger china, the outdated shanghaihua.
I don't think it fits the new image of Shanghai to be a metropolis, Yes, abandon those local dialect is a wise choice.

Klamath said:

Shanghai is far away from a metropolis and modern now, although you think it is , so ask some others in U.S, how do they think about their metropolis. Don't be narrow minded, be more open as I always expected.

Following the Party line does not mean being "open". I find it very ironic that you are lecturing me about being open and open minded. The whole issue here is TOLERANCE and OPEN MINDEDNESS for local culture and tradition, something you completely disregard in your mantra for "Metropolis!", "Stronger China!", "Modern!" If Shanghai has been modern without following the dogmatic Party line, while embracing diversity and a genuine cosmopolitanism since the last century, it sure as hell can again today.

[Klamath]

nishishei, on Jun 20 2005, 05:10 PM, said:

It has every relevance with your post and the attitude you hold:

Klamath said:

Shanghai is far away from a metropolis and modern now, although you think it is , so ask some others in U.S, how do they think about their metropolis. Don't be narrow minded, be more open as I always expected.

Following the Party line does not mean being "open". I find it very ironic that you are lecturing me about being open and open minded. The whole issue here is TOLERANCE and OPEN MINDEDNESS for local culture and tradition, something you completely disregard in your mantra for "Metropolis!", "Stronger China!", "Modern!" If Shanghai had been modern without following the dogmatic Party line, while embracing diversity and a genuine cosmopolitanism, it sure as hell can again today.

So, through your guide, the dialect issue finally come to a political issue.

As you say, shanghai would have been very prosper while left the other land of China behind, and it is a single modern city. Why not advice to build a country named Shanghai as you think?

[hira]

language implies identity. And identity is the supreme political issue.

[AhMan]

When i stayed at Shanghai, the Shanghai Tv did air a comedy show in Shanghai hua and I think this is a regular program.
By the way, my friend told me thank in Shanghai is hajia but on the internet it is xiajia. Which one is correct?

[nishishei]

AhMan, on Jun 20 2005, 05:52 PM, said:

When i stayed at Shanghai, the Shanghai Tv did air a comedy show in Shanghai hua and I think this is a regular program.
By the way, my friend told me thank in Shanghai is hajia but on the internet it is xiajia. Which one is correct?

The comedy show is recent. Like since 2001 because of demand.

"to thank" in Shanghainese is 谢谢 zhaya (the "zha" is like the French "ja", as in the zh in "Dr. Zhivago"; NOT LIKE Mandarin Hanyu Pinyin "zha"). And there is almost ALWAYS an "o" afterwards, so "zhaya o".

The SAMPA-X IPA transcription is [Zja ja]. Nothing like xiajia in Pinyin.

Here's a recording of "thank you" (谢谢侬: zhazha/zhaya non) by two speakers (male and female):
zhayanon.mp3

[hira]

谢谢 zhaya

why not "zhazha" ? Is it a rule, or just that particular expression?

[nishishei]

hira, on Jun 20 2005, 06:19 PM, said:

谢谢 zhaya

why not "zhazha" ? Is it a rule, or just that particular expression?

A rule. Characters that start with [Z] becomes voiced approximant [j] in non-initial position during normal speech. So typically it's still romanized as zhazha. Because it's a character repeat, you might imagine hearing a [Z] in the second syllable too, but if you play the recording slowly and listen, it's really just a [j]. It's clearer when there is no character repeat, like 短袖子 (short sleeves), because to the ears it is completely teuyoutzi.... but 袖子 by itself is zhoutzi. Some Shanghainese textbooks would transcribe 短袖子 with a y [j] instead. Notion of a word is pretty important in Shanghainese due to these pronunciation exceptions and extensive lexical tone sandhi.

Here's a recording of "thank you" (谢谢侬: zhazha/zhaya non) by two speakers (male and female):
zhayanon.mp3

Here's the first female clip of the above with the first syllable "zha" cut out:
yanon.mp3

[hira]

do you have clips of everything? Or you make them on-the-fly?

jokes aside, your effort is really amazing. Keep it up.

btw, when will zanhe.com be finished? It's been months like that. one would think it's being made by the government.

[sdcheung]

Speak Hakka-Kejia and be a Modern person. !!!

[AhMan]

Frankly speaking I would say Shanghainese is the most difficult dialects to learn among Chinese dialects I came in contact with. Even when you here they say it you can't comfortably repeat that. I always need transcript in this kind of situation.

[nguoiVietchanhtong]

AhMan, on Jun 24 2005, 11:22 AM, said:

Frankly speaking I would say Shanghainese is the most difficult dialects to learn among Chinese dialects I came in contact with. Even when you here they say it you can't comfortably repeat that. I always need transcript in this kind of situation.

So what? What if Chinese is the most difficult language in the world, does that make you stop learning Chinese? Nishishei has a good point about great contribution to the Chinese economy. I feel sorry for you that the government does not think the people in Shanghai are precious enough. If there is a political breakage between the the North and the South, I am sure that the South would have better economic and political systems than the North. Right now it's too much corruption going on since the officials can't earn incomes

[xng]

Quote

Chaozhou is Fujianese, I  try not to use Min-nan cos it's also
Fujianese. Chaozhou also existed in Swatou, Guangdong. Chaozhou are also
quite influential in overseas with enormous economy power thru out SEA, thus i
wud say they are quite a distinctive class.

USC

USC, you cannot group chaozhou as a different group. It is just a dialect of min-nan.

Min nan has many dialects including chuan zhou, chang zhou, xiamen, taiwanese, chao zhou, hainanese and penang hokkien.

Swatou was originally a part of fujien province.