[ih8eurocentrix]

a mongols turks how come all central asian culutres seem to be called turks,so does this mean turkey is realted to mongols

[Yun]

Turkic is a language family. The Mongol language is not Turkic (although they are both arguably Altaic). That doesn't mean that ethnically they aren't related.

[Snafu]

Turks and Mongols share a common homeland--Mongolia. In ancient times they also shared very similar cultures and religious beliefs. Like Yun said they had different languages, but there was also a lot of word-borrowing between the languages too. Eventually the Turks expanded beyond Mongolia and spread their language and culture across Asia. Many Turks moved west and converted to Islam. Eventually one group of Muslim Turks, the Seljuks, became the rulers of Persia and laid the foundation for Turkey.

[kaixin]

A Turk can come in many races with no genetic similarity to each other. This was due to their history and migrations and conquests. The original Turks were probably racially similar to Mongolians, but as they expanded westward, they took on many forms and colors.

A Mongolian still tends to be relatively similar to the race of their forebears.

[kaixin]

Also, in the past, Central Asian people traced descent matrilineally. That is why some Turkic tribes paid homage to the 2nd Tang emperor as one of their 'heavenly khan.' His mother and grandmother were of Turkic stock.

[Yun]

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Eventually one group of Muslim Turks, the Seljuks, became the rulers of Persia and laid the foundation for Turkey.

The Ottoman Turks were only the last wave of Turks to enter and occupy the region of Anatolia (present-day Turkey). For the 200 years prior to that, Byzantine Anatolia had already been invaded by several earlier Turkish groups, including the Seljuks, Pechenegs and Uzes. It was the Seljuk invasion and achievement of dominance in the Muslim lands (over the declining Arabs) that precipitated the First Crusade.

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That is why some Turkic tribes paid homage to the 2nd Tang emperor as one of their 'heavenly khan.' His mother and grandmother were of Turkic stock.

Li Shimin's paternal and maternal grandmothers (a Dugu and an Yuwen) were probably at least half Xiongnu. Since Xiongnu is usually identified as a Turkic language, it would be essentially accurate to call them Turkic. But his mother (a Dou) had a Xianbei father, and Xianbei is not classified as a Turkic language.

[kaixin]

^I thought they said that Li Shimin's eldest son was able to speak a Turkic language and still preferred to camp in a yurt tent instead of the palace?

[Yun]

Yes, he learned how to speak Turkut (Tujue) and adopted nomadic ways, but that does not mean he learned it from anyone in his family.

[kermit_criminal]

which is it, were the earliest turks mongoloid, or caucasian? if they were originally mongoloid you would think the migration westward would have whitewashed their genes so to speak. If you ask any turk on other forums, they will tell you turks are caucasian with some mongoloid mixture, but if they came from mongoloid, they would originally have been mongoloid, with caucasian mixtures as they migrated.

[Karakhan]

The original Turkic tribes were probably mongoloid.. physically similar to, if not the same stock, as proto-Mongols.. like stated previously, alot of vocabulary is similar (especially with Turkic Languages such as Kyrgyz, Tyvan, old Uighur, etc).. and a similar grammar system.

However in modern times, I guess one could say being a "Turk" is like being a "Han", in which it is more of a cultural and linguistic identity rather than racial. Ancient Turkic-speaking groups tend to mix with whatever inhabitants they conquered/settled with. As such, the Seljuks adopted Caucasian and Med. features, Chuvash and Tatars adopting more Finnic/Uralic features, and Turkmen, etc adopting Persian-like features. In fact from the farthest western and farthest easter distribution of Turkic groups, one could see a gradual physical change between racial features.. ranging from the Sakha (aka Yakuts) who are completely Mongoloid with Tungusic strains, to the Crimean Tatars and Chuvash who are completely Caucasoid. I suppose some could argue that the Bashkirs are in the middle, looking neither completely "white" nor completely "asian", but having features of both.

[kaixin]

When the Seljuk Turks migrated from Central Asia and conquered Persia and went into Baghdad, their Turkish leader, Alp Arslan met the Muslim caliph and asked for the hand of his daughter. The Arab caliph refused.

Undoubtedly, this is also subtle proof that Alp Arslan must have been of a different race than the Arabs and Middle Eastern people. Most likely, he probably had strong Asiatic features.

Even the Persian works of Ferdowsi mentions this. He writes that the mixed children of Seljuk Turks and Persians were amazingly beautiful, especially the eye shapes.

[Yihesan]

The name "Turk" (Türük/Tujue/Tr'wk/Tourkh) was first used in the 6th century (the exact date of this name being mentioned in the Chinese sources is 542), for an empire established by a people carrying this name. The Türük people established an empire which lasted until 744. This empire is today known as the "Gök Türk" Empire. In the 6th-8th centuries, this name was used for the peoples living under the rule of the Türük Qaghanate (so in the 7th-8th centuries it had also become a political term - like "Ottoman").

The term "Turkic" is a modern term and it's used for many peoples who were related with this Türük people.

In the 7th century, the Muslim Arabs started calling all the peoples related with the Türük/Tujue with the name "Turk" (plural Etrâk). So, even though the name Turk was originially the name of only one people, it was later used for an entire group of related peoples (similar to how the name "Greek" was adopted by the Romans for all the Hellens).

However, the modern name "Turk" is used for the citizens of the Republic of Turkey. The Islamic term "Turk" used for all these peoples related with the Türük/Tujue is now "Turkic" in the modern world. Modern Turks of Turkey are the descendents of a Turkic people known as the Oghuz in the Middle Ages.

Yet, I must also add the fact that there were already Turkic peoples before the Tujue appeared. They weren't called Turk or Turkic back then, but today we know that they are Turkic.

[YELKEN]

Hi, all!

Here are something I want to discuss with you in this forum. I hope you all give your own opinions about this, thank you!

The history of Uyghurs is more complicated and more confused, even more interesting. And, I see the Taklemakan desert is where full of mystories, it is obviously the key to find out one great culture on earth. As we all discuss the origion of Türks, there are some distinct opinions. Some say the Türks were Mongolid people. The origional inhabetants of Central Asian Steppe were Iranic people, white ones, they had the same origion what the Europeans have. Because the discovery of the Kroran Beauty and Cherchen Man can prove this. After the Turkic occupation of the Central Asia, the arrival of Mongoliod people made the local ones has Mongolic blood. And that's why there still can be found some Uyghurs, or central Asian have Mongol looking. Some experts exmaing that the people of Central Asia have the three big origion of human, whites, Mongoliod, and negroid. I don't agree with this arguement as it doesn't has strong relialablity to believe in.

The other opposite argue about the origion of the Türks states that Türks were clearly Europoed people who had light skin, light hair, blue eyes. The reason why the Central Asian have Mongoliod elements is said to be that beacuse of the arrival of the Mongols. After Ghenggizhan took over the whole Central Asia, a great number of Mongols flooded through this area, and had the assimilation with the local people, thery were converted to Islam afterwords. And that made themselves not be able to keep their individuality. I'm not sure about this statement. Personally, I tend to the second one which makes the Turks more comfortable.

Here I have a hasitation if you can help me to make it clearify. The Uyghurs, Uzbeks, Turkmens have had a strong connection with Persians, Tajiks during the early history. So it's obvious that these Turkic nations undoubtly had Persian elements on their biological and cultural structure. We cannot avoid talking about Persians while we are talking about ourselves. However, what about Kazakhs and Kyrgyzs who had less connection with Persians, Arabs, or Chinese? Are they counted as purer Turks than Uyghurs and Uzbeks? How much percentage of European blood and Turkic blood do they have? If they are counted as pure Turkic people, does it make sense that the early Turks were Mongolid people?

Thankyou!
Rehmet.

[kaixin]

One of the earliest Turkic tribe, the Xiongnu (Huns) left bodies and graves in Mongolia and Siberia. Anthropologists have determined that they have a high concentration of Haplotype C, which is the norm for northern Asian groups. They estimate that the Huns were most likely 82% Mongoloid genetically, 11% Caucasoid and 7% mixed. Very likely, they started out Mongoloid, but gained more Caucasoid blood as they moved west and absorbed others.

Race mixing in Tarim Basin occured long before the Uygur migration and conquest. Anthropologists determined that it was going on for over 2,000 years.

[Yihesan]

It's the nationalists in Turkey who claim that the earliest Turkics were pure Caucasoids and I definitially do not agree with that. They don't admit but they have a secret admiration of the white race so they always try to show the eraliest Turkics as white settlers using alphabets in the god-knows-when millenium BC. This is all nothing except being funny.

But it's a fact that the Turkis peoples had elements from both races.