[Optimus]

Wu Sangui had three choices. He could join Li Zicheng, but would be villified by generations of Chinese, for allying with the killer of the last emperor of the Ming. He could join the Manchus, and together destroy Li and his rebels. Or he could just sit tight, and await destruction if the two coorperated...

I'm curious - just how strong or big is Wu Sangui's Army at that time compared to the Manchus and Li Zicheng.
and I thought - allying with the Manchus...a Barbaric Tribe was a bigger crime than joining Li Zicheng. afterall Li and his army were still Han Chinese.
There's no way that the Manchus and Li Zicheng could cooperate in any way so what if Wu Sanggui decided to held on to his fort and contact the remains of Southern Ming Army to fight Li Zicheng while he will resist the Manchus at Shanhaiguan.
or If Wu Sangui and Li Zicheng joined forces, would they be able to fight off the Manchus?
and If Wu Sangui " sit tight " at Shanhaiguan, the Manchus decided to wait... will Li Zicheng finish off Wu Sangui or will he use Wu Sangui as a "barrier between he and the Manchus" and will Li Zicheng armies be strong enough to attack and conquer the rest of Southern Ming.

what do u think...

[lobster]

Joining the Qing was probably the most profitable choice.

- Joining Li Zicheng meant becoming a third rate general. Wu had the best Ming troops and generals, himself a good general as well. Li's group was to overthrow the Ming, so I don't think Li would tolerate such a powerful Ming figure in his squad. Li's squad would probably not accept Wu and Li would have gradually wear him down and chop off his head when the time was right.

- Staying with Ming was impossible as Wu was cut off from the south.

- Starting a new dynasty himself wouldn't get him much popular support neither and would be like telling the Manchus and Li Zicheng, "come and wipe me out."

- Manchu was powerful but not powerful enough, and just finished a power struggle for succession. So Wu joining would be a major stabilizing factor to Qing. It would be a major achievement by Qing, shifting the state's focus to invading China, so Wu would become an important figure, which was what happened to him after he joined Qing. The Qing during that time was treating the Han's quite well, and using Qing's help to revenge for the late emperor would get Wu support from his troops.

[jiangji]

Wu sangui is stuck between Ming and Li zicheng army. I think Wu clearly know that Li zicheng are no match for Qing army. It was quite clear when Li army morale suffered greatly after conquering Beijing. Most of Li army are from peasant, they are not suitable for longer warfare.

I really doubt southern Ming can do much because once Bejing is captured, there isn't a united forces fighting against Qing and Li. It separate into different faction.

Most sources put Wu army between 50,000-100,000. However, I believe Wu army are much smaller than 100,000.

You can visit the link below for more detail (not everything it said is accurate though)

http://www.china-def...644/1644-2.html

This post has been edited by jiangji: 15 June 2005 - 05:07 PM

[poirot]

Wu's army is definitely smaller than 100,000. Perhaps even smaller than 50,000.
Nevertheleses, Wu's army was a decisive piece, a keystone that shifted the momentum towards the side of the Qing.

Given the level of corruption shown by Li Zicheng's troops in 1644, collapse was inevitable. Wu was wise and savvy enough to see that he would not maintain his status under the control of Li; on the other hand, siding with the Manchus would make him their guide to the central plains, and give him prestige far greater than that bestowed upon Hong Cheng Chou.

Nevertheless, I would disagree on the second part - the failed allied front against the Manchus. For example, in the later periods of anti-Manchu efforts, the Southern Ming and the remaining rebels from Zhang Xian Zhong's faction allied together. Former generals who served under Zhang Xian Zhong, such as Li Ding Guo and Sun Ke Wang, became protectors of the Ming and earned significant posts within the Southern Ming Army. Although I think that the Manchu incursion into the central plains was inevitable, the Manchus' full conquest of China was not inevitable. If the allied anti-Manchu front were luckier and more stable, a situation quite similiar to the Southern Sung Dynasty would have occurred.

THEN, THE MANCHUS WOULD BE WISE NOT TO FORCE THE HANS TO SHAVE OFF THE FRONT OF THEIR HEAD AND WEAR RIDICULOUS MANCHU CLOTHING, BECAUSE IT WOULD BE POLITICALLY RISKY, GIVEN THE EXISTENCE OF A SOUTHERN MING STATE.

This post has been edited by poirot: 17 June 2005 - 10:15 PM

[jiangji]

poirot, on Jun 18 2005, 03:14 AM, said:

Nevertheless, I would disagree on the second part - the failed allied front against the Manchus.  For example, in the later periods of anti-Manchu efforts, the Southern Ming and the remaining rebels from Zhang Xian Zhong's faction allied together.  Former generals who served under Zhang Xian Zhong, such as Li Ding Guo and Sun Ke Wang, became protectors of the Ming and earned significant posts within the Southern Ming Army.  Although I think that the Manchu incursion into the central plains was inevitable, the Manchus' full conquest of China was not inevitable.  If the allied anti-Manchu front were luckier and more stable, a situation quite similiar to the Southern Sung Dynasty would have occurred.

After Bejing was captured in 1644, there is no effort being made by the ming loyalist to establish a stable government. At least the sourthen song survived for hundred years. The southern Ming was divided into different faction with prince and general desires to create their own state instead of rebuilding the Ming.

For detail explanation, visit link below ( accurate)

http://mcel.pacificu...ng/zhuang15.htm

This post has been edited by jiangji: 18 June 2005 - 02:29 AM

[Optimus]

jiangji, on Jun 18 2005, 04:07 PM, said:

After Bejing was captured in 1644, there is no effort being made by the ming loyalist to establish a stable government. At least the sourthen song survived for hundred years. The southern Ming was divided into different faction  with prince and general desires to create their own state instead of rebuilding the Ming.

For detail explanation, visit link below ( accurate)

http://mcel.pacificu...ng/zhuang15.htm

If Chongzhen had retreated to the South instead...The Rest of Ming would perhaps be more united...reorganising themselves under the old Emperor instead of every Princes and Generals declaring their own land.

BTW...It seem Chongzhen gave up too early...It isn't all over yet... Even when Li Zi Cheng conquered Beijing, He had only lost half of his land or at most 65%.
There still the Southern China and I think 5 or 6 provinces still under Ming.

This post has been edited by Optimus: 18 June 2005 - 10:39 PM

[jiangji]

Optimus, on Jun 19 2005, 03:31 AM, said:

BTW...It seem Chongzhen gave up too early...It isn't all over yet... Even when Li Zi Cheng conquered Beijing, He had only lost half of his land or at most 65%.
There still the Southern China and I think 5 or 6 provinces still under Ming.

I do agree with you. However, I think the Ming never expect that Beijing would fall so easily. After it was captured, there is little time for Emperor Chongzhen to escape.