[Tyler]

Through weakness and corruption of the Imperial Court, a band of peasant rebels arose. They called themselves Yellow Turbans, claiming that the Han was dead, and the time had come for a change. Their leader, Zhang Jue, supposedly received "The Way of Peace" from a mystic, Nanhua. Within these books contained teachings on sorcery, mysticism, and magik's. Entitling himself "General of Heaven", he led the rebellion that is known now as "The Way of Peace". Disorganized, untrained, and weak, they were easily defeated as the Lords of the Land found this rebellion as a way to make a name for themselves. The Yellow Turban leader died of illness, but the Yellow Turban generals persisted.

My question is, what could've happened had the "Way of Peace" rebellion succeeded? What would've happened to the current Han Emperor, and how do you think China would've been altered. And I have a question also, is the Way of Peace book even real?

[General_Zhaoyun]

If the Yellow turban rebellion is successful, there might be a new dynasty established and there would not be 3 kingdoms or constant warfare between different feudal lords.

[Chinaconqueror]

Quote

My question is, what could've happened had the "Way of Peace" rebellion succeeded? What would've happened to the current Han Emperor, and how do you think China would've been altered. And I have a question also, is the Way of Peace book even real?

There was no way in which the "Way of Peace" rebellion would succeed. The Yellow Turban rebellion, though had a large force, were consisted mainly of untrained peasants armies, who were less experience and skilful in fighting the professional armies of Han. If it really was successful, then the Han Emperor would be overthrown . I don't think the Way of Peace book is real.

[Yun]

The Taiping Dao (Way of Peace) rebellion may have been crushed relatively quickly, but its Yellow Turban soldiers actually provided much additional manpower to the warlord armies after they surrendered to warlords like Cao Cao.

A related sect, the Tianshi Dao (Way of the Celestial Masters), led by Zhang Ling and then his son Zhang Lu, flourished in the Hanzhong region and eventually surrendered peacefully to Cao Cao. It was also known popularly as the Wudoumi Dao (Way of the Five Decalitres of Rice) because that amount of rice was an offering made by sick people to the sect in order to be healed. The Tianshi Dao had a far more enduring influence on Chinese popular religion than the Taiping Dao, being one of the sources of the Daoist religious tradition. It still exists today, although the current Celestial Master has moved to Taiwan.

Chen Yinke, a famous Chinese historian of the early 20th century, formulated a famous theory that many of the peasant rebellions during the Western Jin and Eastern Jin were inspired by Tianshi Dao teachings, and that even the aristocrats were often Tianshi Dao adherents. There is some basis to this theory, but the extent of Tianshi Dao influence on society has probably been overstated.

[General_Zhaoyun]

Quote

A related sect, the Tianshi Dao (Way of the Celestial Masters), led by Zhang Ling and then his son Zhang Lu, flourished in the Hanzhong region and eventually surrendered peacefully to Cao Cao. It was also known popularly as the Wudoumi Dao (Way of the Five Decalitres of Rice) because that amount of rice was an offering made by sick people to the sect in order to be healed. The Tianshi Dao had a far more enduring influence on Chinese popular religion than the Taiping Dao, being one of the sources of the Daoist religious tradition. It still exists today, although the current Celestial Master has moved to Taiwan.

Was the Tianshi Dao fought in hand with the Taiping Dao (Way of Peace)? Did it participate in the Yellow Turban rebellion?

[Yun]

No it didn't, in fact the two sects were rivals in terms of their teachings. Zhang Lu fought a separate war against Liu Zhang, the governor of Yizhou (Sichuan) - that was supposedly the reason why Liu Bei was invited into Yizhou and was able to seize it for himself.

[RollingWave]

Just because they were untrained doesn't mean they don't have a chance to suceed, the mighty Ming dynasty fell to a peasent rebellion.... in the sense so did the Yuan/Qin dynasty... both of them are widely regarded of having the most sophisticated army IN THE WORLD at that time.... the most mighty Tang dynasty was also devastated by the Huang Chao rebellion and the last dynasty spent decadse fighting the kingdom of heavenly peace and the Nian rebellion.... ALL of those were peasent rebellion too... and most of them faced army that were even better trained and equiped .

The Han acturally manage to quall this rebellion quickly by commiting political suicide, by allowing local leaders to raise and lead whatever armed forces neccessary to defeat this rebellion, so they managed to mobilize a force far far greater than their own standard army, in the process destroying the entire central government power..... most other dynasty took much longer to fight off these kind of rebellion because they were acturally bright enough to see that trying to crush them quickly like this is more fatal than the rebellion themself.

If you read the historical record, it is clear that the actural central government army struggled hard vs the Yellow turban, it was only thx to the massive local milita that came to aid from all over the country that they manage to defeat them quickly... that and the fact that the yellow turban lacked real brilliant leaders (like Lee Zhi Chang who ended the Ming dynasty... or the first emperor of Ming Zhu Yuan Chang.... or Shian Yu/Liu Ban) and with teh quick death of their cult leader to diease their unity also fell apart..... it is also worth noting that although the offical rebellion ended in only a year or so, their remeants as bandits and raiders and pocket rebellions went on for many many more years.....

If the Rebellion was lead by a brilliant leader, I definately think it could have succeeded in at least toppling the central government completely, but being able to also secure the entire country was a bit more doubtful....

[deathdoom56]

Umm you people are missing a crucial point. The rebellion did succed.

The point was to make China a taoist orientated nation and they did that quite well.

You see Cao Cao, desperatly needing troops for his army hired former rebels and allowed them to keep their religon.

Also when Cao Cao conquered northern Yingzhou he conquered a people who belived in a religon nearly identical to the Yellow Scarves. Many of them fled north into wei when Liu bei attacked.

And since cao cao slaughtered heretics around his empire taoism became the chief religion of china

Also the yellow scarves strategy was brilliant. Bribe half of the eunches and cause mayhem in the capital while invading everywhere else. Althought the bribing part didnt work they managed to surround the bulk of the Han army and would have crushed it if Cao Cao didnt attack

[Yun]

Deathdoom, are you saying that Daoism became the main religion of China during the Three Kingdoms period? Have you further evidence to support that?

[General_Zhaoyun]

For what I know, Daoism couldn't be the main religion during 3 kingdoms period. Daoism only become popular during the Northern/Southern dynasty era.

[Sephodwyrm]

Well, been born on the year of Jia Zi, I personally feel that Chinese history would change a great deal if Zhang Jiao succeeded in toppling the Han dynasty. But I don't think the Yellow Turbans could have overthrew the Han dynasty. Why?
1. They have alienated the very people that supported them by resorting to bigandry and banditry to get their needed resources
2. Zhang Jiao, though a charismatic leader, did not formulate a long lasting plan like what the other successful rebel leaders such as Liu Bang or Zhu Yuan Zhang did.
3. The Yellow Turbans believed that there's strength in numbers and did not bother to train their troops. That's usually why their much larger army were crushed by the better trained armies of the provincial governors.
4. Though the central government was corrupt, there were several provincial governors that were known for their moderate rule and governance. Successful peasant rebellions that toppled a dynasty usually has a government that's thoroughly corrupt. The Han dynasty hasn't rotted to that stage yet.

[deathdoom56]

Yun, on Jun 6 2004, 03:44 PM, said:

Deathdoom, are you saying that Daoism became the main religion of China during the Three Kingdoms period? Have you further evidence to support that?

It didnt become the main religion then but it did in the long run

[Yun]

In what sense? The main religion during the Northern and Southern Dynasties was Buddhism, and Daoism did become institutionalised (by Kou Qianzhi in the north and the Shangqing sect in the south) during that time but only by copying Buddhist insitutions. Later on, Daoism became mixed with Buddhism in popular folk religion, and flourished only in that form. If you're referring to this form of folk religion as the main religion of China, it's misleading to describe it simply as Daoism. For example, ancestor worship was never a big part of Daoism, and neither was Guanyin a Daoist deity.

[Yun]

After studying Three Kingdoms history more closely, I find that the Yellow Turban rebellion has been overemphasised because of the novel. The two rebellions that actually had a far greater impact were those of Beigong Boyu in the northwest in 185, and Zhang Ju and Zhang Chun in the northeast in 187.

Beigong Boyu's rebellion was when Dong Zhuo (who had been very unimpressive against the Yellow Turbans) achieved prominence as a commander of Qiang and Xiongnu troops. It was also when Ma Teng and Han Sui arose as rebels (the novel's characterisation of them as loyal Han governors is false) in control of Liangzhou.

Zhang Ju and Zhang Chun allied with the Wuhuan nomads to attack Youzhou, but were defeated by Liu Yu, the governor of Youzhou, in 188. Gongsun Zan also became prominent in this campaign, even though he was badly defeated in 187. He and Liu Yu clashed over the choice of policy - Gongsun wanted to exterminate the Wuhuan, but Liu Yu chose to win them over and thus isolate Zhang Ju and Zhang Chun. Liu's strategy worked, and he gained such prestige that when the anti-Dong Zhuo alliance was formed in 192, Yuan Shao and others wanted to make Liu Yu emperor (he was a member of the Han imperial clan). Liu Yu flatly refused. Gongsun Zan later turned against Liu Yu, captured Youzhou, and killed him. This laid the basis for Gongsun Zan's war with Yuan Shao over Jizhou, in which Liu Bei got his first big break as one of Gongsun Zan's generals (neither Gongsun nor Liu Bei actually took part in the campaign against Dong Zhuo).

None of this info is written into the novel, because of the need to make Liu Bei and the people associated with him (Ma Teng and Gongsun Zan) look good. In fact, Ma Teng was a rebel who got his 'general' rank from fighting for Dong Zhuo against the loyalists, and Gongsun Zan was a despicable and ruthless man who wanted nothing but power. Liu Yu, one of the major figures of the war against Dong Zhuo and perhaps the only one who was not driven by personal ambition, gets written out of the story altogether.

Also written out is Chu Feiyan (AKA Zhang Yan), who led the Heishan rebels against Lu Bu, Yuan Shao and Cao Cao in Henan and Hebei for 20 years (185-205). Instead there are various fictional rebel leaders thrown into the novel as easy victims for the great heroic generals.

[Wujiang]

It is possible that if a revolution was won under such heavy religious influence, Yellow Turbanism (if we don't want to call it daoism) may become something in China like Christianity in Europe

Bless Cao Cao and all the other lords for stopping that

This post has been edited by Wujiang: 27 August 2005 - 09:54 PM