[Ghost_of_Han]

I'm reading an Oxford version of the Art of the War, and They use this stupid type of Pinyin, I'm not sure if there is a way to convert or I just need the charcters, but its really a problem when understanding things.

I read the RTK in new pinyin, then read an passage on Three kingdoms in old pinyin and could only read the surname sun, and understand that it was Wu?

So is Cao Cao Ts'ao Ts'ao?

And are there any accient marks?

[Kulong]

What are you talking about?

"Cao Cao" would be how you spell it in Hanyu Pinyin, the most accurate Chinese romanization system.

[Bryan]

Well, using the Wade-Giles Romanization, yes, Cao Cao is Ts'ao Ts'ao, just as Cao Ren is Ts'ao Ren, and Sun Ce is Sun Ts'e.... this is all off the top of my head though, so my memory may be different than what I read a while back.

Found a nice simple guide, though it may lack in areas: Wade-Giles Romanization, a Reading Guide

[Edit] Found another site: Pinyin and Wade-Giles Romanization

[zelbest]

just like mao ze dong in hanyu pinyin and mao tse dong in giles

[Bryan]

Found another site: Library of Congress Pinyin Conversion Project

[Yun]

Heehee Kulong, it's rare to find a guy of Taiwanese origin who's such a supporter of Hanyu Pinyin :D

For the benefit of those who don't know what I'm talking about - Taiwan has steadfastly refused to use the Hanyu Pinyin system, because it was developed by the PRC. They're still mostly using the Wade-Giles, while also toying with a new system that they've developed. I've heard that street signs in Taipei are pretty confusing these days...

[DaMo]

zelbest, on Jul 30 2004, 11:49 PM, said:

just like mao ze dong in hanyu pinyin and mao tse dong in giles

The Wade Giles romanization of Mao Ze-Dong would be Mao Tse-Tung not Mao Tse-Dong.

[Kulong]

Yun, on Jul 31 2004, 03:59 AM, said:

Heehee Kulong, it's rare to find a guy of Taiwanese origin who's such a supporter of Hanyu Pinyin  :D

For the benefit of those who don't know what I'm talking about - Taiwan has steadfastly refused to use the Hanyu Pinyin system, because it was developed by the PRC. They're still mostly using the Wade-Giles, while also toying with a new system that they've developed. I've  heard that street signs in Taipei are pretty confusing these days...

I picked up Hanyu Pinyin when I first came to the U.S. because the computer I bought here didn't have the Zhuyin lables. It took me no more than a week to master Pinyin and become completely fluent. I find it extremely useful. BTW, I also know simplified Chinese, which I also picked up rather quickly. I believe languages are just tools, the more you know the better off you'll be :)

Taipei uses Hanyu Pinyin for its street signs. However, instead of following the rules of standard Hanyu Pinyin where the first letter of a different syllable of the same word should be in lowercase as in "Beijing", Taipei capitalizes it and becomes "BeiJing. It's MUCH better than the older bastardized version of Wade-Giles but the capitalizing bugs me.

[Yun]

This is the Zhuyin 注音 system that Kulong mentioned - a way of indicating Chinese pronunciations in symbols, rather than in Roman letters:



I've never learned how to read it - I have a feeling it can't be that easy to learn.

[Kulong]

Yun, on Jul 31 2004, 08:10 AM, said:

This is the Zhuyin 注音 system that Kulong mentioned - a way of indicating Chinese pronunciations in symbols, rather than in Roman letters:



I've never learned how to read it - I have a feeling it can't be that easy to learn.

I don't see how hard it can be. I picked up Hangul quite easily too and Zhuyin isn't too different from Hangul. Zhuyin symbols are simple, generally no more than three strokes. Unlike Hangul, you don't have to adjust the positioning of each syllable based on the symbols used, you just stack them above each other. Zhuyin should be a piece of cake for those who already know the Chinese language.

[General_Zhaoyun]

I've never learned Zhuyin before. But all the keyboards in Taiwan uses Zhuyin keyboard for inputting chinese characters.

[Snafu]

I have to say, even though Pinyin is more accurate, I prefer Wade-Giles. Pinyin just looks ugly in English. It uses too many letters that are not common in English (X's and Z's) and arranges them in a way that's often difficult to pronounce. Wade Giles may not be as accurate, but it definitely looks and sounds much more elegant and appealing to English ears (Which was undoubtedly the intention). I'll take Chung over Zhong or Hsia over Xia any day. Unfortunately I think I'm in the minority. :unsure:

[Kulong]

Snafu, on Aug 4 2004, 10:04 AM, said:

I have to say, even though Pinyin is more accurate, I prefer Wade-Giles. Pinyin just looks ugly in English. It uses too many letters that are not common in English (X's and Z's) and arranges them in a way that's often difficult to pronounce. Wade Giles may not be as accurate, but it definitely looks and sounds much more elegant and appealing to English ears (Which was undoubtedly the intention). I'll take Chung over Zhong or Hsia over Xia any day.  Unfortunately I think I'm in the minority.  :unsure:

English isn't the "universal language", not everything must be based on English.

The problem with Wade-Giles, and other non-Hanyu Pinyin Chinese romanization systems is that they don't have a specific letter for each sound in Mandarin Chinese.

I prefer to see "zh, ch, j, and q" rather than just "ch" and guess which sound it's trying to be. :lol:

It's not difficult to pronounce if you know Pinyin. Again, Pinyin wasn't designed based on English pronounciation. Heck, I don't think any romanization should be designed base on English pronounciation as in English, the pronounciations aren't constant. For example, the letter "a" has at least 3 or 4 pronounciations while in other European languages, such as Spanish, they are constant.

I don't see how Wade-Giles can "sound" more elegant and appealing to English ears because the fact is, if it doesn't sound like Mandarin, it isn't.

"Hsia over Xia"? Have you ever heard of a English speaker trying to pronounce "Hs"? I have, as my father's name is "Hsiao-Ming" or rather "Huh-siao-Ming" to English speakers :P

---

I like to compare Wade-Giles and Pinyin to Chinese translation of English names in Cantonese and Mandarin.

As you may already know, many Chinese translations of English names we have today were originally in Cantonese, since they were the ones who came to the U.S. first. This is why they don't truly reflect the English pronounciation in Mandarin as they would in Cantonese.

For example:

English / Mandarin / Cantonese

• Washington / Huashengdun / Wah-Shing-Tun (Please correct my Cantonese pronounciation if I'm wrong, I am not fluent in Cantonese)

• Chicago / Zhijiage / Chi/Ji-Ga-Go

• Cananda / Jianada / Ga/Ka-Na-Da

Now these names may sound more "elegent" and "appealing" in Mandarin than a Mandarin translation that reflects the English pronounciation such as:

• Washington / 媧星騰 Waxingteng

I don't know about you but I'd much prefer 華盛頓 over "媧星騰" :lol:

[Shadowfax]

Zhuyin is similar to the Japanese Hiragana and katakana, but only elementary students or those who just started learning Chinese use them in writings.

I wish they can change the word Cao into Ts'ao, it's so weird...cow cow. :P

[Kulong]

Shadowfax, on Aug 4 2004, 01:47 PM, said:

I wish they can change the word Cao into Ts'ao, it's so weird...cow cow. :P

Again, Pinyin wasn't designed for English speakers, not that it should. When you read Spanish or French, do you use English pronounciation? :rolleyes: