[caocao74]

On 3rd Sept. 1260 at Ain Jalut ('Spring of Goliath'), the Mongols under Kitburga were defeated by the Marmeluke-Egyptian army of Baybars and Sultan Qutuz.

My question is whether the sensation it caused in the Muslim, Christian and Mongol world was justified? Did the Near East escape from the Mongol drive westwards or were the Mongols already at their strategic limits??

[Alexander39]

caocao74, on Jun 21 2005, 10:09 PM, said:

On 3rd Sept. 1260 at Ain Jalut ('Spring of Goliath'), the Mongols under Kitburga were defeated by the Marmeluke-Egyptian army of Baybars and Sultan Qutuz.

My question is whether the sensation it caused in the Muslim, Christian and Mongol world was justified?  Did the Near East escape from the Mongol drive westwards or were the Mongols already at their strategic limits?? 

Before that you have to study the forces that beat the mongols, besides Baybars, who are one off the great leaders of the age, the forces in Q were mostly Mamluks or slave soldiers, there were originally recruitet from disaffectet mongols and turks and Kipchack/cumans from the steppes after the Mongol incursions in 1241 & 46, the Victory were milked for all it was worth when it came to propaganda, so the Mamluks under the leadership of Baybars could gather support that much easier.
The sensation that they beat Kitburga were not that great at all, the Mamluks were superbly trained and equipped, had high morale and were disiplined to a fault + the tacticts of the Mongols were no surprice for them since they included several former soldiers from the Mongol armies in their ranks.
The differences in numeric strenght were not that great, in fact the numbers of the Mamluks proper were inferior compared to the two strengthen Tumans that Kitburga had whit him, only by counting levies and some mercenary infantry did Baybars army surpassed the Mongols.
The battle were hard fought and according to legend around half of the troops on both sides died duing the fighting but Baybars won the field and chased the remaining Mongol troops back slaying even more.
Baybars had a far easier time replacing his troops than the other way around, so in a way it was first and foremost a strategic victory since the victory secured both the morale superiority to the Mamluks and gave even common troops heart when fighting against Djengis Khans succesors. + it doomed the crusader kingdoms since Baybars now could concentrate on eliminating them.

[orderic]

I am actually writing a book dealing with the Mamluk- Mongol wars. For all those who are interested, here is my description of the battle (please let me know what you think):

As night came over the land, the two armies approached each other and made preparations for the upcoming battle. These two forces were very much each other’s equal in size, leadership and ability. It is likely that the Mamluks had a slight advantage in numbers, but their force was also a little more diverse, having many Syrian, Kurdish and Turkish soldiers in their ranks. Both Qutuz and Ket Buqa were experienced commanders, having taken part in numerous battles and campaigns. One scholar has argued that the Mamluk soldiers were far better than their Mongol counterparts. The Mamluks were indeed the best-trained army of the Middle Ages, and had certain advantages while in combat. For example, the Mongols usually were firing their arrows while riding their galloping horses, and in this position they could only take a shot every four seconds. Meanwhile, the Mamluk soldier was trained to use their bow with their horse standing still, allowing them a much faster rate of shooting - as fast as three arrows in one and a half seconds – and be effective at a longer range.
The professionalism and discipline of the Mamluk soldiers would also keep them from falling into the traps and false retreats that the Mongols typically used on their opponents. The Mamluks knew when it would be the right time to make a counterattack, and if they managed to get into close combat, they were far more deadly in wielding weapons like swords and lances than the Mongols. But one should not discount the abilities of the Mongol soldiers, who had strong discipline and worked so effectively in groups. Moreover, Ket Buqa’s Armenian and Arab contingents only made up a small part of his force, while the army under Qutuz was very much a conglomerate of warriors from several nations. Some of these men would be of pretty poor quality, while rivalries and distrust between these peoples (for example, between Kurds and Turks) had the potential to do more harm than good.
Qutuz held one more advantage over Ket Buqa in this battle. His Mamluks and other men truly believed that they were fighting for their homes, their country, and perhaps most importantly, their faith. Each Muslim understood that if they lost here, the entire Islamic world would have fallen to the Ilkhan. This would be a strong motivation for them, one that could keep them going in the toughest of fights. Meanwhile the Mongols came into this battle believing they were fighting for an empire that was destined to rule the world. But they were now in a land very far away from the Steppe, and one doubts that the Mongols went into this battle thinking that they absolutely needed to win.
As dawn came on September 3rd, the battle of Ayn Jalut began. Villagers from the area came to watch the fighting, and it seemed to them that the whole valley was filled with soldiers. Both armies lined up on a north to south line, spread out wide so that neither side could try a flanking maneuver. The sound of drums echoed over the battlefield as the Mamluks began to move towards the Mongol position. Ket Buqa responded by having his troops let loose volleys of arrows, which ripped into the Mamluk right wing. The arrow barrage left many casualties and caused panic among the rest of the troops. The right wing started to flee, and a contingent of Mongols rode down to chase them. The entire Egyptian army may have given way during this moment of crisis, but it was Qutuz himself who rallied the troops. As he rode through his ranks, he took off his helmet, threw it to the ground, and shouted “O Islam!”
But as Qutuz made his way through his troops, he was unaware that an arrow was aimed right at him. In the midst of all this chaos the Mongol boy, who had been spared by the Sultan a few weeks before, now saw his opportunity to avenge the deaths of his fellow envoys. He took careful aim with his bow, and according to one version of events, he fired an arrow at the Mamluk leader before anyone could stop him. But the shot just missed Qutuz, hitting the Sultan’s mount instead. The horse immediately went down, but Qutuz escaped any injury. The boy never had a chance to fire again, as the other Mamluks seized him and killed him on the spot.
As Qutuz got back to his feet, a soldier named Fakhr al-Din Mama rode over and offered to give up his horse for him. Qutuz initially refused, but Fakhr told him, “If I am killed, there are many who would replace me, but if you are killed at this time there could be no replacement for you, and the Muslims would all be killed!” These words convinced Qutuz, who took up the horse and went back into the battle. At this point, the fortunes of the battle began to turn, as the Mongol soldiers who had gone in pursuit of the fleeing Mamluk right wing found themselves caught in an ambush.
Ket Buqa Noyan was having his own problems too. While al-Sa‘id was vigorously fighting on the Mongols’ behalf, the other Ayyubid prince al-Ashraf Musa had lived up to his promise to Qutuz and had withdrawn his men from the battlefield. He may have even started fighting with the Mongols, but his absence would have certainly caused confusion if not leave part of the Mongol line exposed.
The battle continued to midday. After regrouping his forces, Qutuz led a frontal attack on the main Mongol position. As the fighting intensified, the Mamluks gained the advantage and the Mongol defense began to crumble. Ket Buqa’s troops started to break ranks and retreat, and some even encouraged the Mongol leader to flee. But Ket Buqa refused to listen to their words, and said, "Death is inevitable. It is better to die with a good name than to flee in disgrace. In the end, someone from this army, old or young, will reach the court and report that Ket Buqa, not wanting to return in shame, gave his life in battle. Hulagu should not grieve over lost Mongol soldiers. Let him imagine that his soldiers’ wives have not been pregnant for a year and the mares of their herds have not folded. May felicity be upon the Ilkhan. When his noble being is well, every loss is compensated. The life or death of servants like us is irrelevant."
He held his ground, but he could not fight the Mamluk army alone. According to Rashid al-Din, he was captured, while Muslim accounts of the battle reported that he died on the battlefield. As for his troops, as they fled they seemed to have split up into several groups. Some of the Mongols climbed to the top of a nearby hill where they tried to make a stand. The Mamluks under Baybars came after them and they managed to take the hill and kill or capture nearly all the Mongols. Another large group of Mongols regrouped at Baysan, where they put up a strong resistance to the Mamluks. Qutuz came to scene shouting to his men, “O Islam! O God, give your servant Qutuz victory over these Tartars.” He rallied his men and again the Mongols were defeated. As they fled, Qutuz dismounted his horse, got down onto his knees and kissed the ground. After reciting a prayer, he remounted his horse and continued the pursuit.
The battle had lasted until early afternoon, but it ended with a clear victory for Qutuz and the Mamluks. According to one source, over 1500 Mongols were killed in the fighting, while those who remained scattered to the north. While most were able to escape, with some taking refuge in Armenia, others were not so lucky. Some of them were caught and slaughtered by the local villagers, while a group of other Mongols were found hiding in a thicket of reeds. When they refused to surrender the Mamluks set fire to the reeds, incinerating them. Even the Mongol camp was captured, and with it many of the wives and children of the Mongol soldiers.

[ih8eurocentrix]

oderic were are u sourcing your information for the mameluke mongol war do u have any information of the delhinate sultan vs mongol raids too.

[orderic]

ih8eurocentrix, on Jul 11 2005, 05:43 PM, said:

oderic were are u sourcing your information for the mameluke mongol war do u have any information of the delhinate sultan vs mongol raids too.

It is not an area that I am looking into, but I would think that this book might have some information on it:

Qaidu and the rise of the independent Mongol state in Central Asia
By Michal Biran
Surrey: Curzon, 1997