[kermit_criminal]

what is the history of the Chinese pyramids? I couldnt find much about them on the internet other then a few old photos, vague descriptions and mere guesses from westerners.

Chinese pyramid from Xi'an area






Tibetan Pyramid

This post has been edited by Yun: 29 June 2005 - 06:15 AM

[Gubook Janggoon]

Mmm..why is this in Asian History?


I think pyramids are a popular motif for all peoples. There are a few Korean pyramids too, the most famous of which would be the Goguryeo tombs.

But yea, pyramids seem to be a popular building for all peoples. I.E. the Egyptians, Mayans, ect.

Moved to General Discussion.

[Kenneth]

They are tombs of earth, I wouldnt call them pyramids as such....the 1st is Han, as it looks like part of the Maoling tomb area, it was the most perfect one I had seen and was a shsort distance from Han Wudis tomb.
The second picture is from the Qianling tomb area, and is Tang. It is not a pyramid at all but is a natural mountain. The picture here is along the approach to the tomb. The idea at that time was 'let the mountain be the tomb' whereas the Han took earth mounds from QIn ShiHuang and built them around the areas of Changan. These are even visable from an aeroplane when coming into Xianyang airport and some are collosal.
The third picture is a grouping near the Maoling complex too, as I recall viewing them in the distance from atop a generals tomb.
the Tibetan one I would assume is natural..without a better image..as it is hardly clear as anything beyond a symmetrical hill when so strongly backlit and dark. There is a hill like that on a coastal road out from where I live.

In some ways comparisons between these Chinese tombs and Eygpt & pyramids is valid, and in other ways not.
I call them tomb mounds, as does the literature. There are chambers and a ramp beneath the mound, and some of the more true man-made mounds belonging to princes and princes were open at Qianling so you could enter and walk down the ramp to the coffin chamber.
The Qianling complex scale is comparible...the statues immense and grand. It certainly is impressive, but it is Chinese and I dont use the word 'pyramids' for them.
The first pictured one seems to be one I have pictures of too....the most perfect I saw...with a clear flat top and 4 even sides. In this way I would compare them to mayan platformed 'pyramids' if I had to descibe the shape.

I will be asking about this 'image shack' trick as I have many great images of a great many tombs, but as attachments they are reduced so much I think it wont convey the scene well.
I was amazed to see these features on the central plains, which are so flat and open..so they are clear features on the landscape there.

PS; I will post the pictures soon, and then ask a mod to post it in the 'archeaology' forum' after I have made a good report of the sites.

Pls Note;this topic was originally titled simply 'Chinese pyramids' and was under general discussion...hence my post above & those below. It has since been moved.
Thanks Yun!

This post has been edited by Kenneth: 29 June 2005 - 08:36 PM

[kermit_criminal]

Kenneth, on Jun 26 2005, 07:36 PM, said:

I will be asking about this 'image shack' trick as I have many great images of a great many tombs, but as attachmnets they are reduced so much I think it wont convey the scene well.
I was amazed to see these features on the central plains, which are flat and open..so they are clear features on the landscape.

PS; I will post the pictures soon, and then ask a mod to post it in the 'archeaology' forum' after I have made a good report of the sites.

you can also use http://mywebpage.netscape.com for image hotlinking

[jwrevak]

Gubook Janggoon, on Jun 26 2005, 02:34 PM, said:

Mmm..why is this in Asian History?
I think pyramids are a popular motif for all peoples.  There are a few Korean pyramids too, the most famous of which would be the Goguryeo tombs. 

But yea, pyramids seem to be a popular building for all peoples.  I.E. the Egyptians, Mayans, ect.

Yes, and there are reasons. As far as structures go, modest pyramids are fairly easy to build. The design and engineering are straightforward. Ancients probably got the basic idea from building tumuli (mounds of earth) to mark graves, etc.

[Kenneth]

text to follow in my spare moments....
Dont forget to click on the thumbnail pics below, as they are actually quite large.


this appears to be one of the same tombs above. I am not sure if it is technically part of Maoling...but I took this photo from atop Wudis burial mound from afar. The countryside was beautiful...and the cluster of Western Han tombs in the group picture (as shown above) were clear in the opposite direction. I didnt include my picture here because a combination of water vapour and air pollution made the photo rather less clear than the one above.
They were striking. Consulting my site maps I see that there are 10 Western Han tomb complexes here (all including smaller satellite pits & tombs).
Maoling is near the Western end of the band (and contains Wudi) and Yangling (Jingdi's tomb) which I also visited is part of the Eastern end of the band of tombs.
Others I viewed from the road between Xianyang & Xian included some even larger...and they were wonderful symbols of power and reputation even viewed from a distance.

This post has been edited by Kenneth: 29 June 2005 - 09:36 PM

[Kenneth]

text to follow in my spare moments....
(wow, it worked. Jieming explained it step by step since I am a techno-dummy)


looking from near the base of Wudi's tomb to the one shown above.
I just had to capture the seas of wheat in Shaanxi. The flat open space filled like this in the countryside..feeling endless, interspersed with plots of apples & onions etc etc.
The 2 small mounds nearby are likely to be old features too, as they are like mounds that had watch towers or building structures long ago at the Yangling tomb area.

PS Wudis tomb had a platform at the top also...but a bit slumped with age (as are terraces on archeaological sites in my country too, due to erosion)
A small platform existed atop each ofthe tombs I climbed.
Plantings on them are modern, and a pity really.
I saw pictures of Chiang Kai Shek here around places in XIan, as the bare mounds were clear and the same statues of animals were shown with him standing infront.

This area was not so developed for tourists (which is good) and basically just farmed without souvenier stands or entry fees.
They had more of an impact on me than other such developed sites.....and the farmers must have farmed beneath them much like this for the last 2,000 years.
Dyansties come and go but the people remain

This post has been edited by Kenneth: 28 June 2005 - 06:04 PM

[Kenneth]

text (and more pictures) to follow...in my lunchbreak



The approach to Han Wudis tomb coming from Huo Qubing's tomb. Han Wudi's is much larger than the others directly around it....but not the largest in the region.
Wudi's tomb is just under 50m in height & over 900m in perimeter around the base. The platform on top is about 30m across.
Many treasures have come from the areas around this complex, and some are on display in a developed small tourist spot at Huo Qubings tomb. Not too many Westerners come there it seems, as the manager there took a number of photos of me with her inside the grounds.
Huo Qubings tomb was surrounded by gardens, with a small shrine/temple and museum etc. and a pagoda on top, and yet Han Wudis tomb had nothing like this. (which is good really).
Our local friend commented that when the tourists come they develop the places...and the pictures I saw in texts of neglected and toppled statues at some of the Tang tombs I was told were no longer like that (my photos were old ones), and the tracks were now paved and the statues uprighted. Kind of a shame in some ways as the 'ancient ruins' look has an impact and feeling of its own also.
In this way I found these tombs I visited much more interesting than Qin Shi Huang with all the tour buses & crowds & souvenier stands.

This post has been edited by Kenneth: 28 June 2005 - 09:13 PM

[lianghaochen]

strange...

[Kenneth]

Yeah, strange I suppose....and prominent, striking & impressive. If you know what they are then they are quite a demonstration of authority and 'leaving a mark' on the landscape. They tend to be in clusters, apparently according to geomancy. I mainly got to see thiose withing the West Han Yanling complex (near Xianyang) and the Maoling West Han complex about 1 hours or so drive from Xian northwest IIRC. The pictured grouping which is 3rd in the posts initial images I saw as part of a band of such tombs from near the mound of Wudis tomb, although they probably are a seperate tomb grouping of West Han. Wudi had some of his favoured generals buried as part of his complex, and I will give names to the sites & occupants identities soon.
Qianling was the other I visited, which was Tang..and still had similar satellite tombs of generals & relatives of the Emperors in the same area. Again the Tang tombs seem grouped together and were about 2 hours from Xian IIRC.

This is one of the markers along the 'spirit walk' outside Han Wudis tomb mound. Underneath will be the ramp which leads down to the chamber he lies within.
I will add more info when I get home to my notes.



Han Wudis tomb has not been opened, and the wealth it contains beneath it may well amaze the world.
9 of the 11 Han emperors are buried all in this Xianyang plateau within a 40km band.
Wudi's tomb was built and filled over the course of the 54 year reign...and 1/3 of the Han national income could be spent on tomb projects....!!
After 53 years of continual enlargment it was said that when he died there was difficulty fitting in all the treasures...and based on the items which come out of the ground in the surrounding area (bronze vessels, gilt statues, jade etc.) what may remain beneath could be mind boggling.
I seem to recall comments about masses of robbing of the grounds even happening during SOng, and the amount of material recovered was large. Thousands of people and officials lived around the tombs of emperors and this makes it a target for later treasure hunters.
Attendant tombs in this grouping are many, large to small..and include the generals Wei QIng & Huo Qubing as well as Wudis concubine Lady Li.

I recall seeing that only 800m or so from the base of Wudis tomb farmers had cut the earth around 15 feet deep in a large pit to gain soil to fire bricks from.
With so much history in the area the ceramics & bronzes I have seen for sale in Hong Kong/China & the West make a lot of sense. Accidental discovery is just as much a source as active tomb looting..and agents contact farmers for wares to take to the antique markets in Xian.

This post has been edited by Kenneth: 28 June 2005 - 09:14 PM

[Kenneth]

text to follow;


This is the tomb of Wei QIng (I assume, as I was told it belonged to a general also, and he is listed as buried at Maoling too). This mound is directly beside that of Hu Qubing. This is much more natural than Hu Qubings tomb which has a pagoda & trees atop it and gardens around. It is of similar size.
Huo Qubing's tomb is more of an attraction however, he defeated the Xiongnu in battle several times (as the local carved stones attest to) and was very popular with WUdi. When the general died still a young man Wudi ordered this tombs construction in the shape of Qilian mountain and statues to be placed around it.

This post has been edited by Kenneth: 29 June 2005 - 09:00 PM

[Kenneth]

text to follow


Qianling; the mountain tomb of both Emperor Gaozong & EmpressWuzetain.
The scale is huge, and there arer other views and different statues, huge lions, watchtowers, ostriches, winged horses and smaller statues of 61 life sized foreign dignitaries.
Wu Zetain was the only real female Empress in CHinese history, assuming power after her husbands death and ruling for 15 years......Qianling according to reconaissance isthe only one of 18 Tang Imperial tombs that has not been robbed. It is just so huge and so deep.
The satellite tombs of officials nearby on the plain below no doubt have, andthe excavated tombs of a prince and princess show evidence of this (see below).
Again the amount and quality of burial odbjects in what is the only such joint tomb of its kind should draw world attention if it is ever excavated...but that is to be left to future generations.
The 'spirit way' along here has been restored and paved in recent times, as I have other pictures in text books of its earlier appearance. The position and scale of these immense tomb gaurdians will have been the same for over 1,000 years however.....the scale is grand and the grandeour of it had quite an impact on me as a symbol of Tang dyansty Imperial projects.
PS....this is quite high above the plain below too! it occupies a ridgeline with an impressive view of the farmlands below.

This post has been edited by Kenneth: 29 June 2005 - 09:21 PM

[Kenneth]

actually I have soooo many pictures, but you probably get the idea from these few.
Here is one of the displays at the Maoling complex, as an afterthought I should return back to Han briefly. Han Wudi had these simply carved (but fascinating) animal statues placed around the area of one of his favourite generals tombs, only a short distance from where his own was being constructed.

This is a tiger statue, and behind stand my wife Huang Hsueh Lan, Mr Wong (our wonderfully helpful and patient local friend) and a hospitible local farmer who farms around the complex, Mr Jiang and is a friend of Mr Wong.
Mr Jiang was introduced to us by Mr. Wong and walked us around the nearby tomb mounds.
The statues here are often very simple, but many showed the impact of the 'celestial horse' had on the Han during Wudis reign..even an elephant is included there also.
One unright horse statue had a trampled Xiongnu figure clutching a bow beneath its hooves. all this celebrates the successes of the general buried here, who died very young and was quite a favourite of Wudi.
Other Han tomb carving and statues are very fine (lions and even Rhino etc.) but the most visible immense tomb figures seem to be Tang, of which the scale is very large.
This can be seen in the 'spirit walk' of the Imperial Tang mountain tomb in the post above.

[Kenneth]

one of the huge tomb gaurdians at Qinling, the satellite tombs had them too but Mr. Wong told me they were only small when I saw them and the Emperors tombs have the massive ones. After seeing these I knew what he meant.
There are smaller statues there too, as well as ostriches and huge winged horses..but the smallest human tomb figures had their heads knocked off by tomb robbers who didnt want them watching.
By all accounts thought the largest imperial tombs seem to be intact, as the scale is too large and deep for robbers who most likely raid the outlying smaller tombs or satelllite pits.
I really liked this statue in particular as I looked up at him, as his face was cracked with age and had the look of a naturally weathered stone that is part of a mountain.
Here has been standing there a long time!

[Kenneth]

text to follow in spare moment

This is the tomb mound of Princess Yong TAi, who was said to have died (or been killed) as a result of a scandal in 701ad. There isnt agreement over this however as some say she died in childbirth etc., but she was honoured by Emperor ZhongZong who had her tomb moved here to Qianling in 706ad to rest with her grandparents.
This is her tomb mound, planted in trees. The air vents approaching it is becuase this is the allignment of the ramp to her tomb..which is open. Smaller versions of the huge statues above at Qianling are positioned here too.
The tomb was excavated in the 1960's, and pieces are on display in a small museum onthese grounds...mostly Tang ceramics. Other small tombs are visible nearby from atop the princesses tomb (not shown here).

This post has been edited by Kenneth: 29 June 2005 - 09:57 PM