[Kong Zhixue]

Hey everyone!



Okay I have been wondering about something for sometime now... According to the the novel Liu Bei attacked Wu in 222 AD for the death of Guan Yu and by extension Zhang Fei, since he was his sworn brother, and that he lost because he was so blinded by rage he made some stupid mistakes. Thus playing into Lu Xun's hands.


However in history Liu Bei, Guan Yu, and Zhang Fei were not sworn brothers. Since this is true then why did Liu Bei attack Wu in 222? Also in history was Liu Bei as revenge blinded at Yi Ling as in the novel? And one last thing: was Lu Xun as brilliant as he is protrayed in the novel?


Thanks in Advance,
Kong Zhixue

[jiangji]

If I remember correctly, Liu bei still treat Guan yu like his brother. Also, I think losing Jingzhou to Wu is a big blow to his pride and I doubt Liu bei would act like nothing happen. Lun xun are quite brilliant historically but not as good as the novel portrayed him. Liu Bei troops was hugely inflated in the novel and Lu xun army are actually larger than Liu Bei.

[Lesterado Molotov]

Is this about Jingzhou or Yi Ling??

[Kong Zhixue]

Alright thanks for the replies,





Hmmm..... are you sure that Wu's army was bigger then Shu's historically? I may have revaluate my opinion on why Shu lost then. You see I orignally thought that even though LGZ inflated the numbers Shu still the superiority in numbers. And I thought that Shu lost because Liu Bei made some stupid mistakes he would not make otherwise.



Hmm....


Oh and Lesterado Molotov my question was about why did Liu Bei attack Wu in 222, which resulted in the Battle of Yi Ling.

[jiangji]

Kong Zhixue, on Jun 29 2005, 12:57 PM, said:

Alright thanks for the replies,
          Hmmm..... are you sure that Wu's army was bigger then Shu's historically? I may have revaluate my opinion on why Shu lost then. You see I orignally thought that even though LGZ inflated the numbers Shu still the superiority in numbers. And I thought that Shu lost because Liu Bei made some stupid mistakes he would not make otherwise.
                        Hmm....
      Oh and Lesterado Molotov my question was about why did Liu Bei attack Wu in 222, which resulted in the Battle of Yi Ling.

Liu Bei Yi Ling armies were between 40,000 - 50,000 while Sun Quan sent about 50,000 troops under Lu Xun command against Liu Bei's invasion of jingzhou. I still think Lun Xun was quite brilliant in this battle, he try to lure Liu Bei deep into Wu territory before using the fire strategy to destroy his armies. If Lu Xun is not capable, Sun Quan wouldn't let him took command of the army since this battle will decide Wu fate.

This post has been edited by jiangji: 29 June 2005 - 09:03 AM

[Yun]

In this thread in our Non-English section, one member argued that Liu Bei's main reason for invading the Wu was to save face after the defeat and death of Guan Yu:

http://www.chinahist...?showtopic=4544

[sima old bandit]

Lu Xun is good but not as good as in the novel since in the novel Shu attacks with 750,000 which was more than Cao Cao's chibi forces in the novel.

When your ally or anyone attacks you and takes your territory in that manner, how can you possibly sit back and take it? A punitive expedition is not a bad idea, the mistake was its execution and not retreating despite there being no opportunity for advance.

Moreover, without Jingzhou the 2 pronged attack of Wei cannot be realised.

Incidently, like at Chibi, Sun Quan kept back a sizeable force in reserve should his commanders fail despite his rhetoric that the commander would be in complete control of the external matters.

This post has been edited by sima old bandit: 29 June 2005 - 01:09 PM

[jiangji]

sima old bandit, on Jun 29 2005, 06:06 PM, said:

Lu Xun is good but not as good as in the novel since in the novel Shu attacks with 750,000 which was more than Cao Cao's chibi forces in the novel.

Incidently, like at Chibi, Sun Quan kept back a sizeable force in reserve should his commanders fail despite his rhetoric that the commander would be in complete control of the external matters.

Cao Cao chibi forces is around 830,000 which is larger than Liu Bei Yiling forces in the novel.

Sun Quan never allow anyone to command more forces than him.

[sima old bandit]

Ok the online novel said Cao Cao took about 500,000 with him and then gained about 200,000 from Jingzhou. But it is roughly similar. Anyway it was just to illustrate that in the novel Lu Xun faced odds far more superior than in history.

It is ludicrous since Shu is only one province and cannot possibly support 750,000 troops anyway, unless he emptied Shu almost completely and used all the inhabitants as troops!

[jiangji]

sima old bandit, on Jun 29 2005, 06:27 PM, said:

Ok the online novel said Cao Cao took about 500,000 with him and then gained about 200,000 from Jingzhou. But it is roughly similar.  Anyway it was just to illustrate that in the novel Lu Xun faced odds far more superior than in history.

It is ludicrous since Shu is only one province and cannot possibly support 750,000 troops anyway, unless he emptied Shu almost completely and used all the inhabitants as troops!

I got the figure from the book. I do agree that figure didn't really matter much here. I think Luo want to illustrate the importance of this battle in three kingdom era. Shu-Han did sent almost half of their troops attacking the Wu. It's seem like all bad thing happen to Shu-Han when Liu Bei declare himself as King of Han zhong.

This post has been edited by jiangji: 29 June 2005 - 01:36 PM

[sima old bandit]

^Surely even in the novel that had to be more than half their troops... otherwise the total troop numbers in the novel would probably exceed the total population for Shu! With that kind of manpower they could have easily gone straight to Wei and they would have trampled over them if they took them by surprise.

This post has been edited by sima old bandit: 29 June 2005 - 04:15 PM

[青文景武剑]

regardless of the reason why LiuBei invaded Wu, his relationship with GuanYu and ZhangFei is obviously better than other generals. even in the SanGuoZhi, there relationship were as good as brothers.

[cy_88]

sima old bandit, on Jun 29 2005, 11:27 AM, said:

Ok the online novel said Cao Cao took about 500,000 with him and then gained about 200,000 from Jingzhou. But it is roughly similar.  Anyway it was just to illustrate that in the novel Lu Xun faced odds far more superior than in history.

It is ludicrous since Shu is only one province and cannot possibly support 750,000 troops anyway, unless he emptied Shu almost completely and used all the inhabitants as troops!

It's all exaggeration, to make Cao Cao and Liu Bei's fall look more damaging. I think historically Cao Cao had something like 250,000 men at Chibi and Liu Bei had no more than 150,000 men at Yiling. It is impossible for the economy of the Three Kingdoms period to support 750 or 830 thousand men. According to the official census taking during the Three Kingdoms period by the 3 states there were only a combined total of about 8 million people living in the 3 states combined. I'm not sure where this info was originally from (it might have been San Guo Zhi) but during the Three Kingdoms Period Wei was able to field approximately 500,000 men, Wu approx. 230,000, and Shu a mere 100,000 at the very most.

This post has been edited by cy_88: 06 July 2005 - 01:54 AM

[jiangji]

cy_88, on Jul 6 2005, 06:52 AM, said:

According to the official census taking during the Three Kingdoms period by the 3 states there were only a combined total of about 8 million people living in the 3 states combined. 

The population should be much larger than that since census was not a very accurate tool at that time. During the Han period, population was estimated around 50 million and I doubt it drop so rapidly to 8 million even with the war.

This post has been edited by jiangji: 06 July 2005 - 02:10 AM

[cy_88]

I'm pretty sure that the reasons for Liu Bei's invasion of Wu are many and among them are to avenge his "brothers" and gain face. However, I think a major reason for the invasion I read about in some books is that Liu Bei simply could not afford to lose Jinzhou. Jinzhou is situated in the center of China. In his Long Zhong Dui Zhuge Liang described Jinzhou as a very strategic location and instrumental to Liu Bei's success. Jinzhou's location made it somewhat of a transportation hub of ancient China: sailing down the Yangtze River one can reach the lands of Wu, sailing up the Yangtze River one can reach the lands of Ba and Shu, and traveling north across the plains there's an easy access to the Middle Plains. Zhuge Liang's original strategy for Liu Bei in his Long Zhong Dui was for Liu Bei to control both Jingzhou and Yizhou and launch a two-pronged attack northward. One army will cross the Qingling Mountains from Yizhou and attack the Chang'an area, and another army will attack Xuchang and Luoyang directly from Jinzhou. The loss of the strategic Jinzhou was more than Liu Bei could afford because without Jinzhou Liu Bei will be penned up in Yizhou with only mountainous routes out.
Think of Liu Bei's base as two chunks of land, Jingzhou and Yizhou, that supplement one another. The loss of any one will greatly weaken the usefulness of the other.

Perhaps Liu Bei's motivations were partially sentimental, but I think mostly it was based out of sheer necessity.