[jiangji]

naruwan, on Jul 6 2005, 11:30 PM, said:

That's counting the pirates as immigrants to Taiwan.

Also the dates on that "ESL Island" website isn't set in stones.


where 1517 was when the Portregese sailor named the island. The island wasn't colonized until 1625. Then European wasn't there since Koxinga got there, so the ending date of 1894 came out of no where.

If you look at my previous posts at "If the Chinese had discovered Europe", I am saying that there are already people from mainland living in Taiwan before 1603. If you look at BBC sources, it states " consecutive Chinese rulers paid little attention to Taiwan, sometimes outlawing emigration there, and sometimes describing it as a base for pirates." So, it could mean the island is being ignored by the Ming government but this doesn't mean the island don't exits. This may somehow explain why the island is not on chinese record.

I could have provided a better sources but internet sources other that BBC aren't that good.

This post has been edited by jiangji: 06 July 2005 - 07:31 PM

[naruwan]

jiangji, on Jul 6 2005, 04:46 PM, said:

If you look at my previous posts at "If the Chinese had discovered Europe", I am saying  that there are already people from mainland living in Taiwan before 1603. If you look at BBC sources, it states " consecutive Chinese rulers paid little attention to Taiwan, sometimes outlawing emigration there, and sometimes describing it as a base for pirates." So, it could mean the island is being ignored by the Ming government but this doesn't mean the island doesn't exits. This may somehow explain why the island is not on chinese record.

I could have provided a better sources but internet sources other BBC aren't that good.

Just because the Pirates (often credited as Japanese by the Han Chinese) knew the island existed, doesn't mean the Ming government knew it existed. In fact they did not know the island existed.

You might want to take a look at the thread

http://www.chinahistoryforum.com/index.php...wtopic=2004&hl=

Here's a quote:

Quote

一六○三年沈有容出兵台南剿倭寇時，隨軍的陳第就說，台灣非中國 的版圖，因倭寇盤踞以騷擾福建，所以才出兵。同時的陳學伊甚至說 ：「假令不有沈將軍今日之巨功，吾泉人猶未知有所謂東番（按即台 灣）也。」

In 1603, General Shen You-Rong went to Tainan to rid of the pirates. The recorder Chen Di wrote "Taiwan is not a part of China. It is because of the Japanese pirates settling here, forcing us to come here. Recorder Chen Xue-Yi wrote "If not for General Shen You-Rong's successful military action, even a QuanZhou, FuJian person like me, wouldn't know of the existence of DongFan (Eastern Barbarians, referring to Taiwan).

[jiangji]

naruwan, on Jul 7 2005, 12:07 AM, said:

Just because the Pirates (often credited as Japanese by the Han Chinese) knew the island existed, doesn't mean the Ming government knew it existed.  In fact they did not know the island existed.

You might want to take a look at the thread

http://www.chinahistoryforum.com/index.php...wtopic=2004&hl=

Here's a quote:

I am saying that we should not ruled out easily that Ming gov't doesn't know it exists up till 1603. There was no official chinese records on the island doesn't mean Ming doesn't know it exists. Taiwan was very near to the mainland and if Ming fleet manages to sail it to Africa, I can't find any reason why the Ming doesn't know the island exists. Even the Wu kingdom know the island exists.

Quote

"Chen Di wrote Taiwan is not a part of China" 

Yes, Ming never control taiwan before 1661 but doesn't mean it don't know the island exists. According to BBC sources, the later rulers did not seem interested in the island and tend to ignore it. So, I find it highly possible to assume the Ming gov't could have know it.

This post has been edited by jiangji: 06 July 2005 - 07:24 PM

[Tibet Libre]

Just to give some raw material:

http://en.wikipedia....story_of_Taiwan

Quote

In Chinese history records, several 'suspicious' entries that may relate to Taiwan appeared.

1 During 607 and 610 some generals of Sui Dynasty had embarked on several military operations on Liuqiu(流求國), described in 《隋書流求傳》(Book of Sui). Many scholars think Liuqiu in Sui Dynasty is the present Taiwan.

2 1292 the Kublai Khan(忽必烈) of Yuan Dynasty tried to force minorities in Yizhou(夷州) to pay tribute.

3 1335—1340 Wang Dayuan(汪大渊) wrote a book 《岛夷志略》 which describes Liuqiu(琉求) after he had visited it.

4 1375 The Ming Dynasty had dispatched a delegation to the now Ryukyu Islands. Thereafter the Chinese call the Ryukyu Islands as Liuqiu(琉球), and an island under the Ryukyu Islands "small Liuqiu" (小琉球), which may be the present-day Taiwan.

5 Between 1403 and 1424 the great fleet of Ming Dynasty's admiral-- Zheng He possibly visited Taiwan.

[naruwan]

jiangji, on Jul 6 2005, 05:18 PM, said:

I am saying that we should not ruled out easily that Ming gov't doesn't know it exists up till 1603. There was no official chinese records on the island doesn't mean Ming doesn't know it exists. Taiwan was very near to the mainland and if Ming fleet manages to sail it to Africa, I can't find any reason why the Ming doesn't know the island exists. Even the Wu kingdom know the island exists.

It's simple really. Taiwan was not on a trade route. Where Zheng He followed the trade route from Nanjing to Java, from Java to India, then from India to Arabia, finally from Arabia to Africa. You see, Zheng He wasn't really an "explorer". He didn't venture out of the known world. For that simple reason, since Taiwan was unknown, and not on the trade route. Zheng He wouldn't have came to China.

jiangji, on Jul 6 2005, 05:18 PM, said:

Yes, Ming never control taiwan before 1661 but doesn't mean it don't know the island exists. According to BBC sources, the later rulers did not seem interested in the island and tend to ignore it. So, I find it highly possible to assume the Ming gov't could have know it.

I find no edvidence that any of the Chinese rulers before the Dutch really knew where Taiwan is, what's in Taiwan, or how to get there. With probably the exception of 隋煬帝.

[naruwan]

Tibet Libre, on Jul 6 2005, 05:28 PM, said:

Just to give some raw material:

http://en.wikipedia....story_of_Taiwan

Thank you.

There are even more possible mention of islands that could be Taiwan or anyother islands from Japan to Ryokyu. None of these can be identified as Taiwan. At most they include Taiwan in a name for a general area.

前漢書 - 東鯷
「會稽海外有東鯷人，分為二十餘國，以歲時來獻見…」

臨海水土志 - 夷州
「夷州在浙江臨海郡的東南，離郡二千里，土地無霜雪，草木不枯，四面皆山，眾山夷所居。山頂有越王射的正白，乃是石也。…部落間互不相屬，各號為王，分劃土地、人民……種植五榖，釀粟為酒，魚肉亦多。善織細布，喜在布上刻圖紋飾……」

吳志孫權傳 - 亶州
「夷州亶州在海中，長老傳言，秦始皇遣方士徐福將男童女數千人入海，求蓬萊及仙藥，止此不還…」

隋書 - 流求
隋煬帝派遣朱寬、陳稜率軍至流求並把數千名男女捕回中國。

Here's a list of names for Taiwan since the beginning of Ming dynasty:
東蕃 、毗舍耶、台員、大員、大圓、台灣、大灣、東鯤、埋冤、琉球、島夷、東夷、海夷、夷州、東鯷、大灣，大宛等。

The reason why there's so many names to refer to one single island is this:

The Han people didn't know it's the same island. That means, the Han people didn't really know this island. Didn't really travel to this island. Because they simply don't have need to go to this island.

Where as 夷州 and 琉球 have been referring to Ryukyo and always have. Because it's on the trade route between Japan and China.

In fact, by 山海經 Shan Hei Jin's entry of
「甌在海中閩在海中」
shows that people normally traveled to Fujian by boats back in the days. A lot of these names could have been one of the islands off the coast of Fujian. Or even Fujian itself.

This post has been edited by naruwan: 06 July 2005 - 07:52 PM

[jiangji]

naruwan, on Jul 7 2005, 12:35 AM, said:

It's simple really.  Taiwan was not on a trade route.  Where Zheng He followed the trade route from Nanjing to Java, from Java to India, then from India to Arabia, finally from Arabia to Africa.  You see, Zheng He wasn't really an "explorer".  He didn't venture out of the known world.  For that simple reason, since Taiwan was unknown, and not on the trade route.  Zheng He wouldn't have came to China.
I find no edvidence that any of the Chinese rulers before the Dutch really knew where Taiwan is, what's in Taiwan, or how to get there.  With probably the exception of 隋煬帝.

I agree that Taiwan was not part of the trade route but the zheng he fleet could have visits Island evethough there was no such record exits.

This post has been edited by jiangji: 06 July 2005 - 07:54 PM

[naruwan]

jiangji, on Jul 6 2005, 05:52 PM, said:

I agree that Taiwan was not part of the trade route but the zheng he fleet could have visits Island.

Yes they could have. They also could have visited the Americas.

They could have.

[jiangji]

naruwan, on Jul 7 2005, 12:54 AM, said:

Yes they could have.  They also could have visited the Americas.

They could have.

Many record was destroy after the expedition was banned, we will never know the entire of it.

[naruwan]

jiangji, on Jul 6 2005, 06:01 PM, said:

Many record was destroy after the expedition was banned, we will never know the entire of it.

The point is just because they could have, doesn't mean you can say he established a trading network from Taiwan to Africa.

Also, why mention Taiwan and not Americas, when there seems to have more proof that Zheng's fleet might have sailed past the Cape even to the Americas?

This post has been edited by naruwan: 06 July 2005 - 08:07 PM

[Tibet Libre]

Aside the politics, the people of Fujian must certainly have known about the existence of the island all the time? I mean, it's barely 150 km from their coast and with the trade route along the South China coast there must have been many ships in distress at sea landing in Taiwan.

[jiangji]

naruwan, on Jul 7 2005, 01:06 AM, said:

The point is just because they could have, doesn't mean you can say he established a trading network from Taiwan to Africa.

Also, why mention Taiwan and not Americas, when there seems to have more proof that Zheng's fleet might have sailed past the Cape even to the Americas?

I am not saying Taiwan was a trade route for Ming in the early 15 century but merely say that Ming gov't could have known about the existence of the island. Tibet Libre is right about his point. Taiwan island is only 150km from the mainland while America are so far away from china and difficult to find. Menzies still doesn't have credible evidence to prove the fleet discover America. If you can argue that Zheng fleet can possibly reach America.. why not taiwan?

This post has been edited by jiangji: 06 July 2005 - 09:20 PM

[naruwan]

jiangji, on Jul 6 2005, 07:14 PM, said:

I am not saying Taiwan was a trade route for Ming in the early 15 century but merely say that Ming gov't could have known about the existence of the island. Tibet Libre is right about his point. Taiwan island is only 150km from the mainland while America are so far away from china and difficult to find. Columbus discover America was merely of luck. Menzies still doesn't have credible evidence to prove the fleet discover America. If you can argue that Zheng fleet can possibly reach America.. why not taiwan?

I don't think Zheng ever reached America. As I said, I don't believe he is an explorer that Han people credit him now. I was merely being sarcastic.

How far Taiwan is from China is pretty irrelavent in the arguement of whether Chiense knew of its existance or not. Because either they know and write about it, or they dont'. India is far from China, yet Chinese knew where it was, and traveled back and forth between India and China. Tang even sent an army there. Africa is incredably far from China, yet Zheng He knew how to get there and that he could got exotic animals from Africa.

Because these places are on the trade routes and the knowlege of these places is passed on along the trade routes.

[jiangji]

naruwan, on Jul 7 2005, 02:27 AM, said:

How far Taiwan is from China is pretty irrelavent in the arguement of whether Chiense knew of its existance or not.  Because either they know and write about it, or they dont'.  India is far from China, yet Chinese knew where it was, and traveled back and forth between India and China.  Tang even sent an army there.  Africa is incredably far from China, yet Zheng He knew how to get there and that he could got exotic animals from Africa.

It's was quite different because as stated in BBC that the Ming shown no interest in the island. Also, Ming might have discover a lot of island and does this mean they have to record every single one.

[Pakan 01]

The original people (non-Chinese) called the island Pakan. The Portugese named it Formosa. In terms of real occupation and governing Japan ruled for a longer continuous period of time than China ever did. Before that, Taiwan was a headache for China due to continuous rebellions and therefore tended to ignore it as being not worth the bother.