[feathersea]

if by any chance the Ming defeat the Man,the last king of Ming (Chongzhen) get through the hardest period,will the opium war happen to China,cause the Dynasty Qing is gernerally considered as a period when China start to drop behind(someone thinks the regress begin at Ming,and Qing turn it worse ).
if the Ming is still in charge of China,the powder weapon may develop fast in China casue it seem the millitary force of Ming had already concern on the hot weapon(guns ,artillary and so on),if the histoy goes as it should ,when the opium war began ,the armada of english and his marine would have faced the well-armed Mings army and massly equited by hot weapon which may be not as advanced as theirs,do you think Ming are capable of repelling them?

[wlee15]

The Qing was mostly a extension of Ming's economic and political policies, so even if the Ming did serve the multiple rebellions, political factionalism, underpaid officials, detached Emperors there isn't much more that a Ming government would do instead of a Qing government. In addition it wasn't so much as the Qing slowing down (when compared to Ming) but in that advances in Europe had been accelerating due to the nations of Europe attempting to gain a leg up on each other. Unless the Ming consisted fought (and survied) enemies that believed themselves to be equal or superior to the Ming, there was little need to develop their military technology and more importantly the military's organization and flexibility.

[Yun]

The Manchu should not be referred to as the Man. 'Man' is a modern name for these people and did not exist at the time.

The Ming was finished even if the Manchus did not invade. Li Zicheng had already overthrown the dynasty, remember?

For a more thorough discussion, see these threads:

http://www.chinahist...?showtopic=1939

http://www.chinahist...?showtopic=5124

[jiangji]

feathersea, on Jul 10 2005, 07:11 AM, said:

if by any chance the Ming defeat the Man,the last king of Ming (Chongzhen) get through the hardest period,will the opium war happen to China,cause the Dynasty Qing is gernerally considered as a period when China start to drop behind(someone thinks the regress begin at Ming,and Qing turn it worse ).
   if the Ming is still in charge of China,the powder weapon may develop fast in China casue it seem the millitary force of Ming had already concern on the hot weapon(guns ,artillary and so on),if the histoy goes as it should ,when the opium war began ,the  armada of english and his marine would have faced the well-armed Mings army and massly equited by hot weapon which may be not as advanced  as theirs,do you think Ming are capable of repelling them?

The Ming was deteriorate to a level that was unrecovered. Through the entire 16th century, the Ming was rules by weak and lazy Emperor manipulated by eunuchs. Longqing Emperor was probably the only good emperor at that time but died to early to give some any new hope to the Ming Empire. Even long before chong zhen come to power, the nations was already bankrupt.

The only great solution for Ming Empire survival was to move the capital city to Nanking and let the Li zhicheng and Manchu army fight among themself. However, I think this solution was rejected by Emperor chongzhen because he never expect the capital city would fall so easily to the rebel. If Emperor chongzen manage to escape to sourthern territory, the Ming may have survive for a long time like southern song. Unfortunely, the dead of chongzen result in disunited sourthern Ming. Many princes and Ming general all trying to fight for power instead of forming a united front against their common enemy.

Kang xi, Yong zheng and Qiang long were all far greater Emperor than chongzhen. So, china could not have been so prosper under chong zhen reign. Also, I don't sees the gunpowder would improves greatly under the Ming. Cannon was already in use by the Ming in the early 15 century during Emperor Hong Wu reign. From there on until chong zhen, there wasn't a drastic improvement in cannon firepower. I think the Ming even imported cannon from the dutch to fight against the manchu. I wouldn't see there will be drastic improvement in Ming military either since they already bankrupt.

Even the Ming manage to survive, they will still fall far behind the western world because of the isolation policy. Ming and Qing all adopt the same position toward the outsider. So, the Ming fate will be very similar to the Qing.

This post has been edited by jiangji: 10 July 2005 - 09:34 AM