[Ghost_of_Han]

Quote

The Xin Dynasty 9AD - 23 AD Wang Mang, having usurped the throne, began widespread reforms. He nationalised the gold industry and wished to reduce the power of the upper-class nobles in favour of the common people. This earned him their enmity and was to be his downfall. Natural disasters struck and the people rose in revolt. Confronted with oppostion from both upper class and lower class, the hapless Wang Mang was dethroned and killed by the Green Woodsmen rebels in 23 AD. 

Well I know that Wang Mang took advanage of a child emperor to eventually control the empire. And he usurped Han. But I'm not sure how he and his Dynasty fell. And I'm confused if he has a counter part. On Kongming.net they show:

Quote

Han Dynasties 206 BC - AD 220
- Xin (interregnum) AD 8 - 23
  (Overthrown by East Han rebels)

Xin Dynasty Ruler
- Wang Mang 8 AD - 22 AD

Han Dynasties 206 BC - AD 220
- Eastern (Later) Han AD 23 - 220
  (Overthrown by Wei rebels)

Eastern (Later) Han Dynasty Rulers
- Guang Wudi (Liu Xuan, Emperor Gengshi) AD 23 - 25

But on our website we have:

Quote

Han Dynasty (汉) [206 BC – 220 AD]Western Han (西汉)[206 BC – 25 AD]

Includes Wang Mang (王莽) [ 9 -23 AD] and Emperor Gengshidi (更始帝)[ 23-25 AD]

Format: [Ruler’s title], [Ruler’s Name], [Period of Rule], [Portraits if any]

Emperor Han Gaozu (汉高祖), Liu Bang (刘邦), 206 BC – 195 BC, (Portraits)
Emperor Han Huidi (汉惠帝), Liu Ying (刘盈), 194 BC – 188 BC
Empress Gaohou (高后), Lü Zhi (吕雉), 187 BC – 180 BC
Emperor Han Wendi (汉文帝), Liu Heng (刘恒), 179 BC – 157 BC
Emperor Han Jingdi (汉景帝), Liu Qi (刘启), 156 BC – 141 BC
Emperor Han Wudi (汉武帝), Liu Che (刘彻), 140 BC – 87 BC
Emperor Han Zhaodi (汉昭帝), Liu Fuling (刘弗陵), 86 BC – 74 BC
Emperor Han Xuandi (汉宣帝), Liu Xun (刘询), 73 BC – 49 BC
Emperor Han Yuandi (汉元帝), Liu Shi (刘奭), 48 BC – 33 BC
Emperor Han Chengdi (汉成帝), Liu Ao (刘骜), 32 BC – 7 BC
Emperor Han Aidi (汉哀帝), Liu Xin (刘欣), 6 BC – 1 BC
Emperor Han Pingdi (汉平帝), Liu Kan (刘衎), 1 -5 AD
Emperor Han Ruzi (汉孺子), Liu Ying (刘婴), 6 - 8 AD
Wang Mang (王莽), 9 -23 AD [Xin 新 dynasty]
Emperor Gengshidi (更始帝), Liu Xuan (刘玄), 23-25 AD


Eastern Han (东汉)[25 – 220 AD]

Format: [Ruler’s title], [Ruler’s Name], [Period of Rule]

Emperor Han Guangwudi (汉光武帝), Liu Xiu (刘秀), 25-57 AD
Emperor Han Mingdi (汉明帝), Liu Zhuang (刘庄), 58-75 AD
Emperor Han Zhangdi (汉章帝), Liu Da (刘炟), 76 – 88 AD
Emperor Han Hedi (汉和帝), Liu Zhao (刘肇), 89 – 105 AD
Emperor Han Shangdi (汉殇帝), Liu Long (刘隆), 106 AD
Emperor Han Andi (汉安帝), Liu Hu (刘祜), 107 – 125 AD
Emperor Han Shaodi (汉少帝), Liu Yi (刘懿), 125 AD
Emperor Han Shundi (汉顺帝), Liu Bao (刘保), 126 – 144 AD
Emperor Han Chongdi (汉冲帝), Liu Bing (刘炳), 145 AD
Emperor Han Zhidi (汉质帝), Liu Zuan (刘缵), 146 AD
Emperor Han Huandi (刘桓帝), Liu Zhi (刘志), 147 – 167 AD
Emperor Han Lingdi (汉灵帝), Liu Hong (刘宏), 168 – 189 AD
Emperor Han Shaodi (汉少帝), Liu Bian (刘辩), 189 AD
Emperor Han Xiandi (汉献帝), Liu Xie (刘协), 189 – 220 AD

This Gengshidi, person is he the "Green Woodsmen rebel" who took out Wang Mang. The names are diffenert from Kongming, and us who is right? Was Gengshidi part of Xin or Han Dynasty, or was he part of a Dynasty at all? How did Wang Mang Fall. There is also a small account of how he came to power on the Gay Emperor Post .

Any info is really wanted

[Yun]

Wang Mang's socialistic policies pissed off the aristocrats, but they also came at a time of famine, and so rather than enjoying the benefits the peasants blamed the new government for their misery as well. The "Green Woodsmen" (Lulin 绿林) were only one of many peasant rebellions that broke out against the Xin regime. By the time Wang Mang's regime fell, the whole empire was seething with warlords, rebels and self-defence militias, all trying to stay alive and gain some measure of power. In the end, different members of the Han imperial clan were also fighting one another for the right to be the man who restores the Han dynasty. Liu Xuan and Liu Xiu were two of these.

17 AD: Gua Tianyi 瓜田仪 starts a rebellion in Kuaiji 会稽 (Suzhou).

"Mama Lu" 吕母 forms a band of pirates to avenge her son after he is framed and murdered by local officials in Haiqu 海曲 (in Shandong).

And in Jingzhou 荆州, famine drives the peasants into the marshes to dig roots for food. Local residents Wang Kuang 王匡 and Wang Feng 王凤 champion their cause and decide to organise them into a rebellion. They are joined by other local leaders, and begin raiding the cities. Their base is on Mount Lulin 绿林山, and they are thus called the Lulin rebels (mistakenly translated in English sources as Green Woodsmen). The Lulin forces quickly swell to 7,000-8,000 men.

18 AD: A famine in the Qingzhou 青州 and Xuzhou 徐州 areas (Shandong and Jiangsu) sparks off another peasant rebellion, led by Fan Chong 樊崇. Their base of operations is on the sacred Mount Tai 泰山. Within a year, they grow to 10,000 men, and keep growing as other local rebel leaders join forces with them. Their discipline is strict, and they have an egalitarian system in which warriors call each other "Giant" (juren 巨人). Liu Penzi 刘盆子, a descendant of the Han imperial house, is captured by these rebels and made to herd their cows for them.

Also, in Donghai 东海 (in Shandong) Li Zidu 力子都 leads an army of bandits on raids around the Xuzhou and Yanzhou 兖州 areas.

21 AD: Gua Tianyi dies, but his rebellion in Kuaiji is still going strong despite government attempts to suppress the rebels or bribe them into surrender.

The governor of Jingzhou leads 20,000 troops to suppress the Lulin rebels, but is defeated at Yundu 云杜, with several thousands of government troops killed and all their supplies captured. The Lulin rebels seize more territory in Jingzhou, and increase to more than 50,000 men.

22 AD: The Western Han imperial clansmen Liu Yan 刘演 and Liu Xiu 刘秀 start a rebellion in Chongling 舂陵 (near Zaoyang 枣阳 in Hubei) with 7,000-8,000 men. The Lulin rebels split into two after a plague on Mount Lulin kills more than half of them. One group, under Wang Chang 王常 and Cheng Dan 成丹, moves south; the other group under Wang Kuang and Wang Feng moves north. Liu Yan and Liu Xiu join forces with this northern group.

In Pinglin 平林 (also in Hubei), Chen Mu 陈牧 and Liao Zhan 廖湛 rise in support of the Lulin with more than a thousand men, and call their forces the Pinglin Troops. Liu Xuan 刘玄, another Han imperial clansman, joins the Pinglin Troops and is appointed as a clerical officer.

In the east, 100,000 government troops close in on Fan Chong's rebels in Shandong. In order to distinguish themselves from the enemy, Fan Chong orders his men to all colour their eyebrows with vermillion dye, thus giving them the nickname "Red Eyebrows" (chimei 赤眉). At the Battle of Chengchang 成昌, the government troops are defeated. The Red Eyebrows pursue them to Wuyan 无盐, where they kill one of the two Xin generals.

"Mama" Lu the pirate dies of illness - by this time, her army has grown to 10,000. These pirates disperse and join the Red Eyebrows or two other rebel groups in Hebei - the Green Calves (Qingdu 青犊) and the Bronze Horses (Tongma 铜马).

23 AD: The northern and southern detachments of the Lulin rebels regroup at Nanyang 南阳 (near Zaoyang in Hubei). Marching northwards into Henan, they win victory after victory and grow to the strength of more than 100,000. The Lulin leaders decide to enthrone one of the Han imperial clansmen so as to give themselves more political legitimacy. The southern Lulin group support Liu Yan, while the northern group and the Pinglin Troops support Liu Xuan. Liu Xuan is chosen, and formally assumes the reign title of Gengshi 更始 (hence he is known to history as the Gengshi Emperor - Gengshidi 更始帝). A few months later, the city of Wan 宛 (in Henan) is captured and chosen as the Lulin capital.

Wang Mang is alarmed at the rise of this imperial pretender and sends an army of 420,000 (which is falsely claimed to be a million for propaganda purposes) from Luoyang to attack Wan. Passing by the city of Kunyang 昆阳 on the way, they surround the city which is garrisoned by the Lulin leaders Wang Feng, Wang Chang and Liu Xiu with only 8,000-9,000 men. The Xin army uses tunnelling and siege towers to try and take Kunyang and showers crossbow bolts into the city from the towers. Liu Xiu sees that the situation is hopeless without reinforcements, and leads 13 cavalrymen to break out of the city. He gathers 3,000 shock troops and returns, catching the Xin troops by surprise. The Lulin troops in the city sally out, and the Xin troops flee towards the nearby river. At this time a thunderstorm is raging, and the river has flooded - nearly all the Xin troops are drowned in its waters, except for a few thousand who escape back to Luoyang.

Following the great victory at Kunyang, Liu Xuan grows jealous of the prestige of Liu Yan and Liu Xiu. He finds an excuse and has Liu Yan executed. Liu Xiu is outraged but controls himself, begging forgiveness from Liu Xuan and biding his time for revenge.

Liu Xuan sends one army to take Luoyang and one to take Chang'an. Luoyang falls first, and Liu Xuan moves his capital there. The Red Eyebrows also arrive at Luoyang after their own northward campaign. But Liu Xuan gives them the cold shoulder, and they leave. Liu Xuan also send Liu Xiu to Hebei to reestablish Han rule there. In Hebei, Liu Xiu carefully builds up his own power base and prepares to challenge Liu Xuan when the time is ripe.

The Lulin western expedition reaches Chang'an. Wang Mang resorts to gathering the convicts in the city into an army, but they instead start looting his palace. In a last stand with his bodyguards against the Lulin, he is killed by a rebel merchant named Du Wu 杜吴. Wang's head is cut off and his body dismembered. His Xin dynasty, founded in 8 AD, comes to a bloody end after only 15 years.

At this time, other warlords are rampant all over the empire: Gongsun Shu 公孙述 in Sichuan, Kui Xiao 隗嚣 in Gansu, Qin Feng 秦丰 ("King of Chuli" 楚黎王) in the Xiangyang 襄阳 area, and a whole bunch of lesser bandit kings. Besides Liu Xuan in Luoyang, there are three other "emperors" claiming to be the heir to the Han throne: Liu Wang 刘望 in Runan 汝南, Liu Yong in Juyang 雎阳, and Wang Lang 王郎 in Handan 邯郸. Liu Wang and Liu Yong are true imperial clansmen, while Wang is only claiming to be the son of the late Han Emperor Chengdi.

24 AD: Liu Xuan moves his capital again, from Luoyang to Chang'an. There, he quickly becomes absorbed in wine and women, and the other Lulin leaders also slip into corruption and tyranny. The Red Eyebrows decide that their time has come, and begin preparations to march on Chang'an and overthrow Liu Xuan. In Hebei, Liu Xiu defeats and kills the Handan "emperor" Wang Lang, and also destroys the rebel armies of the Green Calves and Bronze Horses.

25 AD: Liu Xiu makes his move and proclaims himself emperor of the Han in Hebei. At exactly the same time, the Red Eyebrows, advancing towards Chang'an, decide to proclaim their former captive Liu Penzi as the new Han emperor. There are now at least six Han emperors in China.

The Red Eyebrows defeat Liu Xuan's army, while other Gengshi leaders like Wang Kuang defect to their side. They enter Chang'an, and Liu Xuan surrenders and is given an aristocratic title. Two months later, the Red Eyebrows change their mind and strangle him to death.

In Chengdu 成都, Gongsun Shu having defeated an invasion by Gengshi troops, proclaims himself emperor as well, with the name of his state as Chengjia 成家.

26 AD: In Chang'an the Red Eyebrows' famed discipline breaks down, and they begin to loot and vandalise the capital. Their supplies also run out, just as a famine begins in the area. They loot all the wealth they can find, burn down the imperial palace, and return eastwards.

Liu Xiu makes Luoyang his capital, but has sent an army to tail the Red Eyebrows to Chang'an. His troops try to take Chang'an from the Red Eyebrows, but are defeated. Short of supplies just like the Red Eyebrows, they withdraw.

Receiving news that the Red Eyebrows are returning to the east from Chang'an, Liu Xiu sends another army to intercept them. He also sends an army against the other rival Han emperor Liu Yong in Juyang. After a long siege, Liu Yong breaks out of the city but is betrayed and murdered by one of his generals. But Liu Yong's other generals flee into Anhui and proclaim Liu Yong's son Liu Yu 刘纡 as their leader, with the title King of Liang 梁王.

27 AD: Liu Xiu's forces intercept the Red Eyebrows, but are soundly defeated, suffering heavy losses. They regroup and attack again, and this time the Red Eyebrows are crushed, with 80,000 men and women surrendering. Hearing of this, Liu Xiu personally leads his main army to surround the Red Eyebrows. Starving and outnumbered, the remaining 100,000 rebels simply lay down their arms. Liu Penzi's career as a Han emperor is over, while Liu Xiu's is just beginning. Over the next ten years, he will have to mount many more campaigns to defeat Gongsun Shu, Kui Xiao, Liu Yu and all the other warlords who remain independent. But his capital remains at Luoyang, east of the old Han capital of Chang'an - and thus his revived Han dynasty comes to be known in history as the Eastern Han.

[General_Zhaoyun]

Quote

This Gengshidi, person is he the "Green Woodsmen rebel" who took out Wang Mang. The names are diffenert from Kongming, and us who is right? Was Gengshidi part of Xin or Han Dynasty, or was he part of a Dynasty at all? How did Wang Mang Fall. There is also a small account of how he came to power on the Gay Emperor Post .

Gengshidi (更始帝)'s name is Liu Xuan (刘玄). Gengshidi was his 'emperor title'.
He was a relative of the royal family of the western han dynasty. He was part of the Green woods army, and established the "Gengshi" regime which was neither part of Xin nor Han dynasty.

Just a short info about Green Woods/forest rebel army (lulin army 绿林军):

It was founded in AD 17 by Wang kuang (王匡) and Wang Feng (王风), who led a rebellion as a result of a famine dispute around the region of Jingzhou. Their base was at Lulin Mountain, hence they were called Lulin army. After a few years of development and battles, this army increased to tens of thousands. But in AD 22, the place of Lulin mountain was hit by a pestilence (an epidemic) that caused many deaths among the soldiers of the green woods army. Left with no choice, they withdrew from Lulin mountain.

The Green woods army was divided later divided into 2 groups:

1. Xiajiang Division (下江兵) led by Wang Chang (王常) and Cheng Dan (成丹)
2. Xinshi Division (新市兵) led by Wang Kuang and Wang Feng

Following this division, Liu Xuan joined the Green woods army.

In AD 23, following a victory at Chengchang, the Green woods army officers assembled at Yuyang, where Liu Xuan was elected as Emperor Gengshi (Gengshidi更始帝) and the Gengshi regime was founded.

[General_Zhaoyun]

Here is a short historical account of how Wang Mang fall:

The establishment of the Gengshi regime forced Wang Mang to change the setups of boths sides: he concentrated full forces to tackle the Greenwoods army. In AD 23, he despatched a 400,000 strong army ( which he claimed to be 1 million) to attack Kunyang, which was occupied by Green woods army. Following the government army were a large number of tigers, leopards, rhinoceroes, elephants and other fierce animals.

During the time, the main force of Green woods army was attacking Wan city; the other units were scattered at Dingling and Yan city, east of Kunyang. There were only 8500 soldiers led by Wang Feng and Wang Chang, at Kunyang and the nearby area. This created a vast disparity between the balance of strength of both sides.

The government forces were now stronger than the Green woods army. Under such circumstances, the latter decided to let Wang Feng and Wang Chang defend Kunyang and assigned Zong Tiao and Liu Xiu to break through the encirclement to request reinforcements.

Facing the government troops' ferocious attack, the peasant-rebels defending kunyang put up a valiant performance. Kunyang still remained unscathed after nearly one month's defence.

The reinforcements raised by Liu Xiu finally arrived in time. Launching a pincer attack, the Green woods army inflicted a crushing defeat on Wang Mang's government troops. While fleeing, they trampled on each other, their dead bodies scattering in the wilderness. In history, the Battle of Kunyang (昆阳之战) added a well-known combat in which a smaller army defeated a bigger one.

In AD 23, the Greenwoods army advanced towards Chang'an and broke through the Xuanping Gate in the northeast. The people in the city responded in quick succession. When Wang Mang, who was in a dead end, fled to the platform of Cang Pong at Weiyang Palace, he was killed by a merchant named Du Wu (杜吴)
Wang Mang's regime and Xin dynasty was thus exterminated.

[Yun]

In short, the Lulin overthrew Wang Mang and installed Liu Xuan, the Red Eyebrows overthrew Liu Xuan and installed Liu Penzi, and then Liu Xiu defeated the Red Eyebrows and installed himself, although it took some time for him to consolidate his authority throughout the empire. As with all end-of-dynasty free-for-alls in Chinese history, the winner was the Last Warlord Standing.

Bai Yang compared the census figures in 2 AD and 140 AD to illustrate just how great had been the human cost of all that fighting. In Chang'an, the population had decreased by 58%. In parts of Inner Mongolia and Gansu, the registered population had fallen by 91%-97%. This was most likely a result not so much of the civil war (these places were not major theatres of warfare during the rebellions), but of famine and raiding by the Xiongnu during the collapse of central authority. In 10 AD, Wang Mang's refusal to recognise the Xiongnu Chanyu as an independent ruler had led to the outbreak of war. The Xiongnu launched devastating raids on the border areas, capturing huge numbers of peasants and livestock, and 300,000 Xin troops under 12 generals were sent out on 6 routes to counterattack the Xiongnu. The constant drafting of manpower and requisitioning of supplies caused famines on the northern border, and the Xin troops made it worse by pillaging whatever they needed. It is said that the border was largely depopulated within a few years, and all that could be seen were bones lying in the open. It's very probable that most of the people who "disappeared" from the census actually were captured as slaves by the Xiongnu, or even joined them willingly. Those who didn't would have just starved to death.

An interesting article by Edward Kaplan on the reasons for Wang Mang's failure, as well as the rise (and subsequent decline) of the Eastern Han: http://www.wwu.edu/~...n/H370/ap22.pdf
(you'll need Adobe Reader for this)

[Yun]

GoH, the material you quoted from Kongming.net shows just how unreliable fan sites can be:

Quote

Han Dynasties 206 BC - AD 220
- Eastern (Later) Han AD 23 - 220
  (Overthrown by Wei rebels)

Eastern (Later) Han Dynasty Rulers
- Guang Wudi (Liu Xuan, Emperor Gengshi) AD 23 - 25

As you now know, Guangwudi of the Eastern Han was Liu Xiu, who reigned from 25 AD onwards - and he is a totally different person from Gengshidi, Liu Xuan who reigned from 23 AD to 25 AD.

Furthermore, it's not accurate to say that the Eastern Han was overthrown by "Wei rebels" - Cao Pi was the son of the Prime Minister, so he was a usurper but no mere "rebel".

[Sephodwyrm]

Chang An was so devastated by the wars that the Chi Mei (red eyebrows) army that occupied Chang An and killed the Gengshi Emperor had to surrender to the Lulin faction under the leadership of Liu Xiu because of the lack of food. The Han Emperor that was set up by the Chi Mei (Liu Penzi) was not executed though. It was said that his ascension and his downfall were so traumatizing to him that he cried his eyes blind.

Liu Xiu is a very fortunate man. He is also extremely superstitious, believing in the book of the mystery prophecies...

[Ghost_of_Han]

Quote

Emperor Gengshidi (更始帝), Liu Xuan (刘玄), 23-25 AD

Ok then why does he have the word Han after the word emperor on his title, did he jsut not feel like naming himself that or what?

[General_Zhaoyun]

Sorry.. don't get what you say.. what do you mean by han after his emperor's title? Isn't it just Gengshidi?

[Ghost_of_Han]

Quote

Isn't it just Gengshidi?

exactly all the emperors of the Han have Han in front of their names, why not him?

[RollingWave]

GoH, all the the Han xxx Di titles ur referring to were installed AFTER their death... Han wudi was never referred that way while he was alive and nor did any other emperor in Chinese history starting from the Han........

But titles like Genshidi were probably the term he used himself when he was alive... it is probably the title year of his calandar much like Kangxi Yongzheng Qianlong 康熙 雍正 乾隆 (they were given other titles after they passed...such as Qianlong was Qing Gaozong 清高宗) ... but since his reign ended with his death and was not considered a proper dynasty he was not granted a offical title...... in fact most last emperors of particular dynasty did not recieve titles..... the last emperor of the western Han dynasty was simply called baby Yin for example........ Pu YI also did not get a offical reconization name .....

Although some did......... cases vary for example the last emperor of the eastern Han dynasty was given the offical title after he died as he passed down the throne peacefully.... the last empeor of the Ming also got reconization because the Manchu wanted to create the image that they respect the mandate of heaven etc...

[Yun]

GoH, Gengshidi was not honoured with the title "Han Gengshidi" because the Eastern Han considered him a pretender, and not a real emperor. Remember, he had Liu Xiu's elder brother beheaded. Liu Xiu would not at all have been inclined to regard him as a legitimate emperor. Similarly, all the other "Han" emperors who competed with Liu Xiu, like Liu Penzi and Liu Yong, were not recognised by the Eastern Han as being of the Han, even if they were members of the imperial clan. As far as the Eastern Han was concerned, the first legitimate Han ruler since the fall of Wang Mang was Liu Xiu (Guangwudi).

[Ghost_of_Han]

Quote

"Mama Lu" 吕母

I notice that this Lu and the Lu Bu from Three Kingdoms have the same Chinese surname (the two boxs on top each), is there some kind of realtionship here?

[RollingWave]

GoH Lu is a rather common surname.... i highly doubt there is any connection... like I don't have any connection with President Chen but we have the same surname :P

[Ghost_of_Han]

I need your backing Liu Ce or someone who belongs to SOSZ, I was trying to tell them to rearrange there name problem look here Kongming's problem.