[Gubook Janggoon]

warhead, on Jul 25 2005, 08:46 AM, said:

"Tang didn't have designs over Shilla?  Mmm..My copy of A New History of Korea by Ki-baik Lee says differently."
Tang only tried to attack Silla because Silla was a thorn to its side, it started to attack Paikche right after the destruction of Koguryo. Tang chose to incorporate Silla not out of interest but neccessity. This can be seen by the fact that Tang left the Korean peninsula alone for the most part until one power threantened to overran the others(first Koguryo, then Silla).That necessity changed when the Tubo rose in the west and Tang chose to abandon the Korean peninsula's campagins. But its up to the Tang whether it wants to invade Japan or not.

How was it a thorn? Shilla was simply claiming lands that had been promised to it by Tang before the war had even started. Wouldn't it have been easier to simply give the lands to Shilla and have an ally if Tang wasn't interested in Shilla? Why go through the trouble of trying to make a comandery there and provoking a war?

[Borjigin Ayurbarwada]

Tang didn't retain garrisons in Paekche afterwards, they left it to local administrators. Thats enough to show the lack of design in the southern peninsula. Since Tang already took Paekche, a puppet ruler is obviously more preferable than Silla, whose loyalty is still in question, Tang was perfectly willing to abandon Paekche and never undertake a campaign to recover it after it was taken by Silla, it merely colded Silla and received an apology in return. The point is southern Korean peninsula was not strategically important for the Tang and it abandoned it when encountering the slightest difficulty.

[Gubook Janggoon]

^^^

Mm...I think it's a matter of perspective now. That's what history is though eh?

[kaixin]

Even after Tang garrisoned troops in the former lands of Koguryo and Paekchae, they faced stiff and periodic revolts from the native populace. This facillitated Shilla's rise to power and driving the Chinese out of most (not all) of Korea within 30 years of occupation.

[Gubook Janggoon]

kaixin, on Jul 25 2005, 10:18 PM, said:

Even after Tang garrisoned troops in the former lands of Koguryo and Paekchae, they faced stiff and periodic revolts from the native populace.  This facillitated Shilla's rise to power and driving the Chinese out of most (not all) of Korea within 30 years of occupation.

Yes, and many of these revolts were in fact sponsored by Shilla.

[stephyzzz]

in my view, think tang can't conquered japan or korea so easily
coz tang army might be powerful,
but they are attacking a foreign state, and these pppl
are untied together to fight off a enemy

[lobster]

"Korea" and "Japan" were not all that united in the 7th century.

There was a "Japan" but there was no "Korean-ness" among Goguryo, Pakchae and Silla (GJ can testify). This could make the native peoples easily manipulated by an able general. But of course since that territory was not all that important, the generals sent by Tang after the war were probably quite cr ap.

This post has been edited by lobster: 27 September 2005 - 11:23 AM

[TMPikachu]

stephyzzz, on Sep 18 2005, 12:44 AM, said:

in my view, think tang can't conquered japan or korea so easily
coz tang army might be powerful,
but they are attacking a foreign state, and these pppl
are untied together to fight off a enemy

The conquistadors in south America got native support against the strongest native group, the Aztecs.

[WangKon936]

Hello fellas,

Some of you guys might remember me and some not. I don't come to this site often anymore because arguing with ignorant nationalists isn't my idea of an effective use of my time. For the few people in this site that are not on the payroll of the People's Republic of China's ancient history propaganda directorate, I thank you. It's you people who have make it worth my while to come in from time to time and have a meaningful conversation.

Now amatures like to talk tactics, hobbyists talk strategy but true professionals talk logistics. The primary considerations of Tang and Sui armies invading remote locations such as Southern Manchuria, the Korean Peninsula and hypothetically- Japan- is logistics. This was the achilles heel of the huge Sui armies sent to attack Koguryo. The Sui couldn't carry enough food to support it's own weight in numbers for more then just a few months. The Tang tried to send smaller armies, with a better degree of success, but because of the small size of the Tang armies, they could not bypass the Koguryo network of fortresses to attack deep into the Koguryo's interior. It was an interesting kind of "Catch-22" case. Sui armies were large enough that they can put troops to guard against attacks to the supply line from Koguryo fortresses but were so big they were hard to keep supplied. Tang armies were small enough where they needed less supplies, but they could not detach enough troops to guard against and neutralize Koguryo fortresses.

Anyways, Tang could not attack Yamato and hope to sustain an effective campaign without a logistical supply base. Tang could not defeat Silla, lost former Paekje territory to Silla, were pushed back past the Tae Dong River by Silla, and then eventually lost former Koguryo territory to Malgal and Koguryo remnants who formed Parhae (even before Tang lost former Koguryo territory to Parhae, the whole of Southern Manchuria was hardly a settled matter). Tang would of had to launch a campaign against Yamato from the northern Chinese mainland in an era where blue water ocean fairing technology in East Asia was in its infancy. In other words, a Tang fleet to invade the Japanese islands would of had to hug the coast of Shangdong, Liaodong and the western Korean Peninsula in order to get to Japan. That's almost 1,000 miles and it's just not practical. Without control of the Korean Peninsula, Tang could not of even thought about invading Japan.

This post has been edited by WangKon936: 20 October 2005 - 06:46 PM

[Borjigin Ayurbarwada]

Quote

That's almost 1,000 miles and it's just not practical. Without control of the Korean Peninsula, Tang could not of even thought about invading Japan.

Its more like 100 mile. And Tang did control most of the peninsula for 8 years. Even after, it still had the northern tip of it. But there is absolutely no reason why it needs to invade yamato other than waste resource.

[Gubook Janggoon]

warhead, on Oct 18 2005, 10:07 PM, said:

Its more like 100 mile. And Tang did control most of the peninsula for 8 years. Even after, it still had the northern tip of it. But there is absolutely no reason why it needs to invade yamato other than waste resource.

Just from Dailan to the South West tip of Korea is around 1000 miles.

And if you ask me 8 years with constant rebellion isn't exactly ideal for an amphibious invasion of Yamato.

BTW welcome back WangKon936. Stick around. :]

[WangKon936]

warhead, on Oct 19 2005, 12:07 AM, said:

Its more like 100 mile. And Tang did control most of the peninsula for 8 years. Even after, it still had the northern tip of it. But there is absolutely no reason why it needs to invade yamato other than waste resource.

Warhead,

I don't think you read my post thoroughly enough. Blue water naval technology in 7th century East Asia was pretty low. Maybe individual ships could venture out into blue waters from time to time, but it was risky to do because of rough seas, weather, etc. Hummm.... I have a feeling that you are drawing a straight line from the Chinese mainland to the Japanese islands. I don't really want to comment on that other then say it doesn't seem like you give a ton of thought before typing something up. Even if you draw a straight line from the Korean port city of Pusan to the nearest Japanese coast, it's still more then 100 miles. Get a good map of East Asia, take a finger, start from the Shangdong Peninsula, follow the coast line, go around the Liaodong Peninsula, etc. till you reach Japan. Trust me, it's close to 1,000 miles.

Ah, and Tang "Control" of Northern Korea and Liaodong. Just what kind of control is that? Border attacks from Silla, Koguryo and Malgal raiding parties. Tang had to move their "Pacification of the East" (Andong duhufu) headquarters out of Pyongyang and well into Manchuria because of the unrest in Northern Korea. And Liaodong? Administrative control of Liaodong given to the last Koguryo prince (King of Choson Commandery) who promptly revolted twice. Tang had to forcibly remove Koguryo population from Southern Manchuria and Liaodong because of the unrest they were causing.

[Borjigin Ayurbarwada]

"Just from Dailan to the South West tip of Korea is around 1000 miles.
"

We are talking about Korea to Japan.


"I have a feeling that you are drawing a straight line from the Chinese mainland to the Japanese islands. I don't really want to comment on that other then say it doesn't seem like you give a ton of thought before typing something up. Even if you draw a straight line from the Korean port city of Pusan to the nearest Japanese coast, it's still more then 100 miles. Get a good map of East Asia, take a finger, start from the Shangdong Peninsula, follow the coast line, go around the Liaodong Peninsula, etc. till you reach Japan. Trust me, it's close to 1,000 miles"


100 mile WAS an estimation, on the lower hand since your estimation is off the chart. The actual distance is a little less than 350 miles from the closest point of North Korea to Japan, a lot closer to 100 than your 1000 mile. TRUST ME, look it up.
I know how long 1000 mile is, the entire span of United States is only 3000 miles.

Quote

Blue water naval technology in 7th century East Asia was pretty low. Maybe individual ships could venture out into blue waters from time to time, but it was risky to do because of rough seas, weather, etc.

Blue water navy is not required to invade Japan, a brown water navy is enough, and Tang has that capability. Yamato Japan itself brought 400 ships to Silla, and their ship technology are inferior. Yuan's invasion of Japan itself is discovered to contain numerous river galleys.

Quote

Ah, and Tang "Control" of Northern Korea and Liaodong. Just what kind of control is that? Border attacks from Silla, Koguryo and Malgal raiding parties. Tang had to move their "Pacification of the East" (Andong duhufu) headquarters out of Pyongyang and well into Manchuria because of the unrest in Northern Korea. And Liaodong? Administrative control of Liaodong given to the last Koguryo prince (King of Choson Commandery) who promptly revolted twice. Tang had to forcibly remove Koguryo population from Southern Manchuria and Liaodong because of the unrest they were causing.

Border attack from Silla only began after 6 years, enough time for invasion preparation for Japan, not that Tang needed it. You seem to forget, it was Tang that ATTACKED Silla. If it really wants to take Japan, it can easily maintain peace and just give Paekche to Silla, since it really doesn't need that territory, although logically, Tang would have needed Japan even less.
Tang didn't move their headquarter "well into Manchuria", the northern quarter of present day Korean Peninsula was still under Tang control even after the Tang withdrew from PyongYang.
Revolting of Liao Dong only occured decades after its subjugation, not that its important since the Tang imperial hegemony lasted for well over a century, if it really desired Japan, for some odd reason if a insane emperor is on the throne, then there are plenty of time intervals where Korean revolt wouldn't be a question at all. In fact right after Japan's defeat in 663, they immedietaely built forts on the shore to prevent possible Tang and Silla invasion. If Tang invaded Japan, Silla might even join.

[WangKon936]

warhead, on Oct 19 2005, 03:07 PM, said:

100 mile WAS an estimation, on the lower hand since your estimation is off the chart. The actual distance is a little less than 350 miles from the closest point of North Korea to Japan, a lot closer to 100 than your 1000 mile. TRUST ME, look it up.

Please read my post again as I was talking about 1000 miles from the Shangdong to Japan, following the coastline. I was assuming that Tang could not conduct operations from Korea or Liaodong, so I start at Shangdong. Hugging the coastline it's about 3,000 km, actually well over 1,000 miles after the convertion.

warhead, on Oct 19 2005, 03:07 PM, said:

Blue water navy is not required to invade Japan, a brown water navy is enough, and Tang has that capability.

I never said a blue water fleet is necessary. I just said that a blue water fleet during Tang times to invade and supply an invasion of Japan wasn't likely. A brown water fleet would have to do, and you have to put that into consideration in any hypothetical invasion of Japan.

warhead, on Oct 19 2005, 03:07 PM, said:

Tang didn't move their headquarter "well into Manchuria", the northern quarter of present day Korean Peninsula was still under Tang control even after the Tang withdrew from PyongYang.

Oh really? Have you read David Graff's book "Medieval Chinese Warfare"? In page 201, and I will quote,

"...the Tang government found it necesary to withdraw the headquarters of its Korean protectorate to the Liao River Valley in the early months of 676 suggests that [the] Korean [claims of victory were] probably closer to the truth."

The Liao River Valley? I would consider that deep within Manchuria, wouldn't you?

warhead, on Oct 19 2005, 03:07 PM, said:

You seem to forget, it was Tang that ATTACKED Silla. If it really wants to take Japan, it can easily maintain peace and just give Paekche to Silla, since it really doesn't need that territory

Oh, I haven't forgotten that it was Tang who attacked Silla. Any Korean elementary school student can tell you that! You are putting words in my mouth. Didn't need the territory? I suppose so. But both Sui and Tang had spent so much resources into conquering Koguryo (the total revenues of three provinces were set aside for the Tang campaigns against Koguryo), I imagine the further conquests of Paekje and Silla would of been good compensation for all their troubles.

warhead, on Oct 19 2005, 03:07 PM, said:

Revolting of Liao Dong only occured decades after its subjugation, not that its important since the Tang imperial hegemony lasted for well over a century

if it really desired Japan, for some odd reason if a insane emperor is on the throne, then there are plenty of time intervals where Korean revolt wouldn't be a question at all.

It takes quite a bit of infrastructure to support hundreds of ships, keep them well maintained, recruit troops and sailors, quarter them, warehouse supplies, etc. Liaodong never had this kind of infrastructure during Tang times. Shangdong did, thus I have always maintained that an invasion of Japan would come from Shangdong. Furthermore, Liaodong (as well as the whole of Manchuria) kept falling in and out of Tang control and didn't have the lasting stability needed for the Tang to invest the resources necessary to develop it in the manner they needed to.

China never seriously thought of invading Japan until the Yuan Dynasty because the Mongols finally secured a close enough base of operations (Korea). It only took five campaigns and 40 years of constant warfare to get that base of operations .

warhead, on Oct 19 2005, 03:07 PM, said:

if it really desired Japan, for some odd reason if a insane emperor is on the throne, then there are plenty of time intervals where Korean revolt wouldn't be a question at all.

I agree with you in the sense that in the 7th century, Japan was not really worth conquest. No natural resources, no exports of well known worth, etc. It wasn't worth Tangs trouble, they had the Eastern Turks to worry about.

warhead, on Oct 19 2005, 03:07 PM, said:

If Tang invaded Japan, Silla might even join.

Yeah, hindsight is always 20/20. I'm sure you know this, but both Sui and Tang wanted to emulate Han. It was the Han Dynasty that conquered Wieman Choson and established Lelang. To replicate the glory of Han, Tang wanted to reestablish Lelang so peace with Silla wasn't really in the cards. Given Tang's objectives in the 7th century, a combined Silla/Tang invasion of Yamato just wasn't what your ancestors or my ancestors had in mind.

Japan in the 7th century was kinda like Britania in Roman Empire times- hardly worth the effort. Debates in the Imperial Senate were often centered around abandoning that leach to the Imperial treasury.

This post has been edited by WangKon936: 20 October 2005 - 12:28 AM

[Borjigin Ayurbarwada]

Quote

Oh really? Have you read David Graff's book "Medieval Chinese Warfare"? In page 201, and I will quote,

"...the Tang government found it necesary to withdraw the headquarters of its Korean protectorate to the Liao River Valley in the early months of 676 suggests that [the]Korean [claims of victory were] probably closer to the truth."

The Liao River Valley? I would consider that deep within Manchuria, wouldn't you?

You might want to scrutinize it first, The keyword here is HEADQUARTER. Not the area of control. Its very clear that the An Dong protectorate was established in the LiaoDong peninsula, but the actual control of Tang still remained beyong the Yalu.
And there are plenty of historians other than Graff. I've come up with a bunch that have different theories regarding to the war.

Quote

Oh, I haven't forgotten that it was Tang who attacked Silla. Any Korean elementary school student can tell you that! You are putting words in my mouth. Didn't need the territory? I suppose so. But both Sui and Tang had spent so much resources into conquering Koguryo (the total revenues of three provinces were set aside for the Tang campaigns against Koguryo), I imagine the further conquests of Paekje and Silla would of been good compensation for all their troubles.

Tang did not have design on Silla, You seem to forget it was Silla that first attacked Paeckche to draw Tang into the war. Nor did Tang have design on Koguryo in the begging for that matter. Tai Zong left Koguryo alone for 20 years. And do show me the source that state the TOTAL REVENUE of three provinces were put into the campaign. Which Provinces?

Quote

It takes quite a bit of infrastructure to support hundreds of ships, keep them well maintained, recruit troops and sailors, quarter them, warehouse supplies, etc. Liaodong never had this kind of infrastructure during Tang times. Shangdong did, thus I have always maintained that an invasion of Japan would come from Shangdong. Furthermore, Liaodong (as well as the whole of Manchuria) kept falling in and out of Tang control and didn't have the lasting stability needed for the Tang to invest the resources necessary to develop it in the manner they needed to.

China never seriously thought of invading Japan until the Yuan Dynasty because the Mongols finally secured a close enough base of operations (Korea). It only took five campaigns and 40 years of constant warfare to get that base of operations

Your assumption is that Tang would invade from Liao Dong, they don't need to, again they controlled the northern portion of the Korean Peninsula!

Quote

I agree with you in the sense that in the 7th century, Japan was not really worth conquest. No natural resources, no exports of well known worth, etc. It wasn't worth Tangs trouble, they had the Eastern Turks to worry about.

Actually, mid-7th entury Tang didn't really worry about anything other than keeping the hegemony it already possess.

Quote

Yeah, hindsight is always 20/20. I'm sure you know this, but both Sui and Tang wanted to emulate Han. It was the Han Dynasty that conquered Wieman Choson and established Lelang. To replicate the glory of Han, Tang wanted to reestablish Lelang so peace with Silla wasn't really in the cards. Given Tang's objectives in the 7th century, a combined Silla/Tang invasion of Yamato just wasn't what your ancestors or my ancestors had in mind.

now thats just total assumption. There are absolutely no evidence Tang wanted to "revive the glory of the Han". Han was Han, Tang was Tang, two different houses, two different family. Sorry but anyone that scrutinized Tai Zong's policy shows that Tang never cared about reestablishing Lelang, Tai Zong specifically mentioned not to waste resource on the Koguryo war after the first campaign, his successors chose a different path.

No one said the invasion of Yamato is on their mind, its obvious that it isn't or they would have mentioned the plan. But the question is IF Tang desired to invade Japan.
And btw, my ancestor (been Jurchens) is actually closer to Silla than Tang, so your ancestor is probably similar to mine.