[Yun]

Those of you who have read the Romance of the Three Kingdoms will remember Sun Jian fishing out the Imperial Jade Seal (Chuanguo Yuxi 传国玉玺) from a well after Luoyang was abandoned by Dong Zhuo. To add greater flavour to the story, a palace maid had apparently drowned herself by tying it to her neck (it's very large for a seal, as befitting its imperial status). Sun Jian thought that having the seal gave him the mandate to be emperor, and when Yuan Shu later got his hands on it, he thought the same thing too. That's the significance of the seal - possessing it confers legitimacy to a new Son of Heaven.

But the seal disappeared for good somewhere along the way in Chinese history, and only fakes have been seen since then. Here's an assignment for you guys who are interested - go check out the internet for info on when and how the seal was lost. Be warned: there are at least three versions of the story!

[Tyler]

Hm here's GZ's version of the story.


I'll make it simple he once told me in a old old thread that the Imperial Jade Seal was in a history museum :( .

[RollingWave]

THe last imperial seals (the once the QIng dynasty used) is indeed in the Palace muesem in Taipei.... however am I correct that by the Qing dynasty each emperor had their own seal? I saw one and it's stated to be the Seal of Qian Long.....

My Wager is that it is probably lost in either the fall of the western Jin or the Rebellion of Hou Jing during the southern Liang dynasty.........

[Tyler]

RollingWave we are talking about the Imperial Jade Seal. It is said if you have it the "mandate of heaven is with you" and you are the son of heaven, you have the right to become emperor and other stuff.

[wuTao]

I've read of an official Imperial Seal that symbolized Imperial authority throughout Imperial Chinese history, but I'm not sure it's the same seal you are inquiring about.

In the book "Perpetual Happiness: The Ming Emperor Yongle", the author speaks of an Imperial seal created by the First Emperor in 221 B.C.E. The First Emperor had his chancellor Li Si, who was an accomplished calligrapher in the clerical (li) style of writing, inscribe on the seal, "Recieve the mandate from heaven/Enjoy longevity and eternal prosperity" (Shou ming yu tian/Ji shou yong chang). Chinese rulers were enamored with it, for it was equated with power, and they believed whoever won the mandate of heaven possessed the seal. It survived a number of dynastic changes, passing from Wei, Jin, Sui, Tang, and Song to the court of Khubilai Khan. After the Yuan dynasty collapsed, the seal was taken north into Mongolia by the Yuan dynasty claimants, and kept there for the next two centuries out of Ming hands (the Oirat chief, Mahmud, who came to possess the seal, once offered it to Yongle when he pledged his allegiance to the Ming, but by that time the Ming had created their own official seals). When the last Mongol khan pledged his services to the Manchu, they turned the seal over to Hong Taiji in 1635. Throughout the 1920s, the seal was highly prized by China's warlords. According to the author, the legendary seal now is in the National Palace Museum in Taipei.

[RollingWave]

I am very well aware of what we are talking about Liu......... 玉璽, the imperial jade seal used by emperors on important offical documents.

However as far as I can see the one I saw in the palace muesem couldn't possibly been created by in the Qin dyansty, thus suggesting that by the Qing dynasty they used their own seals........ and IIRC correctly the one i saw specifically said which emperor it belonged to which would also suggest that each emperor used their own by then.

I have speculation that the original seal survived the age of fragmentation... or at least into the Song....

[Yun]

Keep trying... my answer will take some extensive translation ;)

[Ghost_of_Han]

The Imperial Seal is desricbed to have been about 4 inchs suqare at the base, surmounted by a ring carved in the form of five interlaced Dragon. It is actually chipped on one corner, acorrding to the biography of Empress Dowager Wang of Emperor Yuan of the former Han, (an Aunt of Wang Mang), in about 6 AD when Wang Mang was planning to accend to the throne, he asked for the Seal from her, she threw it (the Seal) to the ground in disgust.

The incsricpition on the Seal is unclear, and uncertain, according to Sun Jian it says "For he who has received the Mandate from Heaven, long life and eternal glory". Others (Yu Xi) say that the last two characters say "great prosperity". And Cui Hao in the fifth century states it says "By the degree of majestic Heaven, long life and prosperity to the Sovereign Emperor". Also semi footnote, the first line is not a direct quote from Sun Jian its from another scholar named Wei Zhao, he wrote it in his book Shu Wu. What I'm saying is none of these scholars saw it with there own eyes, as far as we know.

"We are told, for instance, that the Seal was carved originally for the First Emperor of Qin, using jade from Lantian, or, according to another source, the celebrated piece of jade which had been handed to the King of Chu by the mythical Bian He. The calligraphy was attributed to the notorious Chancellor Li Si: not inappropriately, since Li Si was said to be the man responsible for the reform of the Chinese script in accordance with the unifying policies of Qin." Dr. C

The seal was later given up to Liu Bang, and it stayed in the Han, till Wang Mang seized it when taking power. It was recovered by the restoring emperor Guangwu.

But here is the part Yun is trying to get at. In 189 in Luoyang (the current capital then) He Jin was the regent marshal when Emperor Ling, was on his deathbed. The emperor had him arrange for his succession. Basically the emperor left the throne to someone the eunuchs did not want, and He Jin decided it was time to rid the court of the eunuchs. He secretly called out looking for someone from the outside to come and take care of the eunuchs. Dong Zhuo was quick to muster his men and answer the call. When the place was raided to kill the eunuchs, a fire was set and mass confusion was brought on the place. The Emperor’s heir Shao and the prince Xie both fled the city together. They ended up losing the Seal.

In 191 Sun Jian found it (in a well, I think), and this was sybolism that he would become the emperor someday (In reality his family does he doesn't). Eventually Yuan Shu kind of just asks to see the Seal for a bit or to hold on to it for him. And when Sun Jian came looking for it Yuan would stall or just not give it back, and Sun Jian never did get it back.

In 197 Yuan Shu proclaimed himself emperor, and ended up dying of stravtion in 199. Then suposivly Yuan Shu's officer Xu Qiu, took the stolen seal back to the city of Xu (In text its refered to as "Xu city" I'm not sure if it makes a difference), the city the under influnced emperor Xian was (being controled by Cao Cao who was the prime minster at the time).

After the Seal was returned it remained in the Emperor Xian's possesion for the next 20 years. Finally when Cao Pi took the throne he received the seal (December 11 220). Cao Huan then gives it to Sima Yan the first emperor of the Jin in (Febuary 4th 266). I wasn't sure of this fact it would make more sense that Sima Yi would get it, but here are the refeneces for it: SGZ 4, 154, and JS 25, 772.

After this things just become more and more unclear. Its is said that the seal is actually taken in the Jin Dynasty by those Xiongnu people in 311, when Luoyang was sacked (This was done by Liu Cong). This also marks the end of the Western Jin Dynasty.

Liu Cong ruled the state of Former Zhao, and his successor was Liu Yao. He ended up being defeated by Shi Le in 329. And the seal went into Shi Le's hands. In 352 the government fell apart, and there was a bit of chaos, but none the less the Seal was returned to the court in the Eastern Jin in an area south of the Yangzi. And here we get yet another translation of the seal "Receiving Heaven's Mandate, long life and prosperity to the Imperial Sovereign" cited by the scholar Xu Guang.

All the time people question if the seal was lost somewhere down the line or if a forgy was made. Possibly. Its intersting to point out that Yuan Shu nor Emperor Xian gained any more prestige on having the Seal in the Book (or it seems to me).

Well I tryed my best Yun. I'm intersted to hear your take on it :) .

[Yun]

GoH, you've basically got one of the versions of the story, although some details are left out. I'm still too busy today to give the answer, but those of you who can't wait and can read Chinese can go look at this article.

If Sephodwyrm can translate it into English, GoH and I would be very very appreciative. Otherwise, GoH you may have to wait until Monday or Tuesday.

In the meantime, here's another question to dig into: did the KMT take the Qing imperial seal with them to Taiwan in 1949 because they wanted to show that they were still the legitimate Chinese government? In other words, did the Mandate of Heaven concept still influence political thinking even at this time?

[Yun]

OK, I couldn't bear to let you guys go on waiting, so here I am at 2.30am trying to start on the translation of the above article. I'll omit some repetitive or less relevant passages, because the article is actually made up of four similar but also (in crucial places) different posts on a Chinese RTK forum called Our Sanguo.

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据有关典籍记载，这颗传国玉玺系秦始皇所刻，是封建时代最高
权力的象征。据说它是用卞和所献荆山美玉刻成。这卞和献的荆山美
玉即历史上著名的和氏璧。和氏璧的故事几乎可以贯穿一部春秋战国
的历史。相传卞和是春秋时期楚国人，他在荆山上砍柴偶然发现了一
块玉璞，先后献给楚厉王、楚武王，都被认为只是一块普通的石头，
还被诬以欺诈罪先后截去了双脚。及楚文王即位，失去了双脚的卞和
抱玉璞哭于荆山之下。楚王使人剖璞加工，果得宝玉，为纪念表彰卞
和，称为“和氏璧”。据记载，这和氏璧置于暗处，自然发光；置于
座间，冬月则暖，可以代炉；夏月则凉，蚊蝇不入；还能却尘埃、辟
邪魅，楚国从此视为国宝。战国时期，楚相昭阳因宴会偶失此璧，怀
疑是张仪偷盗，把张仪打了个半死，张仪因此入秦。其实昭阳实在是
冤枉了张仪。这和氏璧不知怎么的竟流到了赵国，于是又上演了蔺相
如使秦完璧归赵的故事。到秦始皇统一六国，“普天之下，莫非王土；
率土之滨，莫非王臣”，和氏璧自然也就归秦始皇所有了。

According to the histories, the Imperial Jade Seal was carved upon the orders of Qin Shihuang, as a symbol of the supreme authority of the emperor. It is said to have been carved from the piece of exquisite Mount Jing jade that was found by Bian He - the famous "Heshi Bi (He's Stone)". The story of He's Stone is a theme that runs through the entire history of the Spring and Autumn and Warring States periods. The legend goes that Bian He was a man of the state of Chu in the Spring and Autumn period. When he was cutting firewood on Mount Jing, he found an uncut jade stone and presented it to King Li of Chu. The King thought it was only a normal rock, and had Bian He's right leg cut off as punishment for fraud. Bian He didn't give up, and later presented his stone to King Li's sucessor, King Wu. But King Wu thought the same way, and had Bian He's left leg amputated as well. Finally, King Wen of Chu came to the throne, and heard that the legless Bian He was spending his days crying his heart out at the foot of Mount Jing, hugging the jade stone that had brought him so much misery. The King sent his men to cut open the stone, and there was indeed a priceless piece of jade inside. In recognition of poor Bian He, King Wen named the jade "He's Stone". According to the records, He's Stone would glow in the dark, and when placed in a house it remained warm in winter (serving well as a stove) and cool in summer (thus keeping mosquitoes and flies out). It was also dust resistant and a potent charm against ghosts and spirits. The Chu regarded it as a state treasure. In the Warring States period, the Chu Prime Minister Zhao Yang lost the jade at a banquet, and suspected the famous diplomat Zhang Yi of stealing it. He had Zhang Yi beaten severely, which led to Zhang offering his services to Qin. In fact, Zhang Yi had been wrongly accused, and the jade had actually been stolen away to the state of Zhao by an unknown thief. This set for the stage for the famous story of the Zhao Prime Minister Ning Xiangru retrieving the jade from Qin. After Qin Shihuang conquered the other six states, however, He's Stone finally came into Qin possession.

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昭阳某日请客时，出壁让各宾客观赏，席散时却不翼而飞。虽多方嫂查也毫无下落。五十多年后，和氏壁又出现在赵国太监缨贤的手中，赵惠文王便据为己有。此时，秦国势力已十分强大，当时在位的秦昭襄王得知和氏壁在赵国，便说
要用十五城来交换壁。赵王只好派商相如出伎秦国。荫相么口不辱使命，用自己的智慧战胜了狡猾的秦王，“完壁归赵"

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楚威王时，相国昭阳灭越有功，威王将和氏璧赏赐于他。不久，昭阳在水渊畔宴宾客赏壁，是时有人云渊中有大鱼，众人离室至渊边，回席后发现和氏璧失踪，怀疑为门人张仪所窃，拘张仪遍审无果。张仪一气之下，离楚入魏，再入秦，秦惠文君十年，拜为秦相，游说诸国服从秦国，以使节入楚，瓦解齐楚联盟。后楚败，秦取楚汉中之地。
　　 战国时，赵惠文王得楚和氏璧，秦昭王“遗书赵王，愿以十五城请易壁”，当时秦强赵弱，赵王怕给了壁得不到城，蔺相如自愿奉壁前往。至秦国，献壁后，见秦王无意偿城，当廷力争，设法取回原壁，送回赵国。

More on the Zhang Yi and Ning Xiangru stories: Zhao Yang was given He's Stone by King Wei of Chu as a reward for his victorious campaign to conquer the state of Yue. When Zhao Yang was having his banquet by a deep pool, someone claimed that he had seen a large fish in the pool, and everyone left his place to look. When they came back, they found that the jade was gone. They suspected Zhang Yi of stealing it, and interrogated him but could get no confession out of him. In his indignation at being wronged, Zhang Yi left Chu and moved to Wei, and then moved on to Qin. He became the Prime Minister of Qin and embarked on a diplomatic campaign to persuade other states to become clients of Qin, thus breaking up the alliance between Qi and Chu. As result, Chu was later defeated by the Qin, and lost the Hanzhong area.

50 years after the disappearance of He's Stone, it reappeared in the possession of the Zhao eunuch Ying Xian. King Huiwen of Zhao then confiscated it for his own collection. At this time, Qin had become a very strong state, and when King Zhaoxiang of Qin heard that He's Stone had reemerged, he offered to give Zhao 15 cities (which he had captured from Zhao) in exchange for the jade. The Zhao king was afraid that Qin would not honour its promise to turn over the 15 cities, and sent the wily Prime Minister Ning Xiangru to Qin to make sure the deal was kept. Ning Xiangru brought He's Stone to Qin, but when he presented it before the Qin king and saw that King Zhaoxiang had no intention of honouring his part of the exchange, he used a brilliant tactic to salvage the situation - he threatened to smash the jade against a pillar, and then bash his own head in as well. The Qin king believed him, and had no choice but to arrange for the handing over of the 15 cities. But perceiving that the Qin would back out again, Ning Xiangru secretly sent He's Stone back to Zhao.

To be continued... (next - the Imperial Jade Seal during the Qin and Han dynasties)

[General_Zhaoyun]

Thanks for the translation,Yun :P

[Tyler]

I would love to hear the Han part of the Imperial seal keep up the good work.

[Yun]

BTW, the reason that Bian He was sure the stone had jade inside, even though he couldn't see it, is because he apparently saw a phoenix flying down and landing on it. According to legend, the phoenix does not set foot on normal ground, so any rock that it lands on must contain some kind of treasure.

[Ghost_of_Han]

Quote

I would love to hear the Han part of the Imperial seal keep up the good work.

Is my verison not good enough for you guys :( ? jp :P :lol:

[Yun]

Actually GoH's version of what happened in the Han is mostly accurate. My addition is more to do with the Qin. :)