[Ghost_of_Han]

By the time I'm done with all my posting you will be making a sub-forum for the Han Dynasty.

Well over the course of the whole school year, I will be trying to write or at least get an understanding a total overview of the Han Dynasty.

And the topic I'm gonna start with now is the economy.

Liu Bang (first ruler), didn't really trust mechants, who in the Qin were used to do administrative tasks. Instead he went to the wealthy landowning families. This class is called the "Gentry", they were told to send there more able sons into government posts and let the less able run the farms. He gave the people time to rest after the period of war which turned out to be positive and raised morale, thus people worked better in this less restricted governement in the end all helping the economy. He had officials always keep an eye on local economies.
And I heard about him doing something with the setting up of salt monopolies.

Later on in the Han Dynasty there was Liu Heng ( 刘恒 ), and Liu Qi ( 刘启 ) (Most info is only on Liu Heng). These emperors had a laissez faire approach on the economy. Laissez fare basically means that government won't interfer, that much (if at all) in the economy, and this allows businesses more room for competition, and business usaually does better then. They tryed to get people to own land (privately). Aslo allowing the minting of coins, and produce salt. When Liu Heng took the throne he halted taxs for 11 years. He was very big on econmics and told his advisors that they should all study up on it. With a peacetime around people didn't have to worry about war, and contracting large tomb construction prodived jobs and help boost the econmy more. Problem was copper mining and coin printing weren't easy to finance, and very few people could afford it. Those who could, gained great wealth. Don't get me wrong just about everyone who was properous, but the rich got out of control. And this is were things went wrong.

And now the time of Liu Che or to most people on this forum Han Wudi (汉武帝). Liu Che was left with great funds to work with, and I feel he needed it. The rich were now just concerned with making money, and they were trying to get into the government more and more. Taking more and more land, and also cutting the peasant population down. Many people had to become slaves. Actually wealthy families were know to have over 1000 slaves. There was a slave market in Chang' an at one time even. I remeber reading that Liu Che freed many slaves, I suppose to counter this. Liu Che had many problems he was having to deal with internal problems and was being threathened by outside forces (Xiong Nu). Liu Che wanted to contuine his fathers policies on "governing without strict regulations" (aka Laissez Faire), and believed a Daoist belief could only be a part or a guideline (Confucius being the other major part). Liu Che began to take away of divide the land of the rich and the nobles. Also limiting the power of mechant, by making state monopplies and commercial taxes. And a huge thing was he opened the silk road, but I don't seeing it having that big of an effect yet, its seems to be a foundation for the future. All of this basically played a major part of what made Liu Che so great.

The next important player in the econmy was Wang Mang. He was big on helping out the poor, or I should say the masses. He took the land from the rich and gave it to the poor, (he's like the Imperial Robin Hood). He gave out loans to the peasants, to help them with farms and what not. He took control of all the natural reasources buisnesses basically(Which was a lot back then, still is today, but more back then). Salt, iron, alcohol and copper coinage, along with the country's main mountains, marshes and rivers (used for hunting, fishing and mining), were all placed under direct state control, so that the people would be more equal (Sounding kinda Communist for a Confucianist). Prevented anymore slave trade (taking a step further then Liu Che). And confiscated all gold. And made things even harder for the merchant class. Most of all Wang Mang was looking to kill inflation. Wang Mang was trying to fix the debasing copper coin industry, which was done by Liu Che. Creating governement stores (in 5 major cities) that would fexible in changing prices for essentials, this only made chaos. Eventually Wang Mang made the old currency illegal. Later on this led to major counterfeiting. Before Wang Mang was taken out, he had accquired over 5 million ounces of gold. And in the end even though Wang Mang was trying to help out the peasants they turned on him, when a famine hit.

This is just the Western Han, but so far that's all I know, I'll be researching more and adding more for a while, I hope you do the same with this. I not possitive if this is correct or not, thats why I'm posting it. I hope that you all can help me work on my mission to completely over-view the Han. Thanks again GOH (汉鬼)

[Yun]

A great start, GoH! But first things first, you have to correct your spelling for a few words:

Economy (not econmy)
Confucius (not Confuscious)
Confucianist (not Confusciousist)
Morale (not 'moral' in this context)

That's to save me the trouble of editing :P Thanks and keep up the good work!

Can someone help fill in the info about the Western Han salt, iron and wine state monopolies? Preferably someone who's read the famous Salt and Iron Debates (Yan Tie Lun) - I haven't, I'm afraid.

[Ghost_of_Han]

Well in the book "Chinese Civilization A SourceBook" Patricia Buckley Ebrey, Second Edition.

I have the first of the 24 chapter in the Salt and Iron Debates in this book. This debate happened to happen after Han Wudi's death. All the Confucians wanted to remove the Salt Iron monopolies, the Liquor excise tax, plus equable marketing system (This is the pharse they use for the Government getting in on the Grain business basically).

I'm not sure how accurate the translation is because it doesn't state but implies that Wudi dies in 81 bc, when he died in 87 bc. But anyways, in 81 bc the "new emperor" allowed a meeting/debate to take place between these Confucians Scholars (refered to as "The learned men") and the emperor's chief minster (name not given in this tranlstion), the man who put these systems into place.

The chapter I read didn't explain the monopolies in detail of how they worked, but more of why they were created, and how they effected China.

In summary First "The Learned Men", wanted the governement to go back to relying more on agriculture( they refered to it as "fundamental pursuits"), and for them to lose the monopolies so there is less emphasis on trade and industry (refered to as "Secondary"). Saying that people of China are now working for a profit, and are not as concered with there duties.

Minster counters this saying Xiong Nu attack the borders, and the people there live in fear of being attack by the Xiong Nu. The border soon spends all of their money gather soilders and hold a garrison. They created the Salt Iron monopolies, the Liquor excise tax, and equable marketing system to finance the repeling of the Xiong Nu (Wudi was known for hanlding the Xiong Nu quite well). If you are to take away the systems put in then you will leave the soliders hungery and cold, and will end up being defeated.

And they go back and forth, for 24 chapters. Baiscally "The Learned Men" were wanting to give the people a way back to tradional econmics when the government didn't play that big of a role. And the Minister argued that it was nesscary, and the better choice. Both sides quote confucius. But I don't know the result of the Debate???

[Yun]

As it happens, today I found in my university library catalogue the reference for the English translation of the Salt and Iron Debates:

AUTHOR Huan, K'uan , fl. 73 B.C.
TITLE Discourses on salt and iron : a debate on state control of
commerce and industry in Ancient China, chapters I-XXVIII /
Translated from the Chinese ... with introd. and notes by Esson
M. Gale.
EDITION [New impression.].
IMPRINT Taipei : Ch'eng-Wen Publishers, 1967.
DESCRIPTION 110 pgs.
SERIES Sinica Leidensia , v. 2.
NOTE Originally published 1931-1934.

See if you can find it over there!

Also, a new book just arrived at the library - "Salt and State: An Annotated Translation of the Songshi Salt Monopoly Treatise" (Ann Arbor, Michigan: Centre for Chinese Studies, The University of Michigan, 2004), by Cecilia Chien. It mainly deals with the state monopoly on salt (and other economic and fiscal policies) in the Song dynasty [those of you interested in the Song military and economy may want to take a look], but its introduction also has a short but useful section on the Han salt monopoly. Here it is:

In the early decades of the Han dynasty, emperors embraced enlightened taxation of the land and appeasement of the Xiongny empire beyond the Great Wall. When Han Wudi broke with this policy, he embarked upon a general military offensive as well as more concerted development of the territory he already held. This led to a fiscal burden that China's smll farmer economy could not bear alone, and the need arose for a new revenue source. In 119 BC, for the first time in Chinese history, Wudi instituted an empire-wide state monopoly of salt, concentrating its production, transport, and sale in offficial hands.

In the system of monopoly prohibitions (quejin), also referred to as monopoly sales (quemai), the Han state restricted entry into the market, took ownership of all salt, and assumed command over production, which had been in the hands of small local producers. The government provided equipment and funds to workers, often landless peasants it had drafted into salt production. It specified the size of evaporation pans to facilitate reckoning how much was manufactured each day. In what was also a monopsony [i.e. only the state has the right to buy the product], the product was not the producers' to dispose of freely; all salt had to be submitted to the state, which punished private production. After collecting the salt, the state undertook to transport it to points of distribution. It implemented empire-wide sales to consumers in which the price greatly exceeded the costs of production and distribution.

The Han salt administration ran separate from and parallel to other central and local government administrations. Salt taxes accrued to the central fisc, under the aegis of the Office of Agricultural Supervision (danong, later dasinong), which established salt and iron offices around the country, controlled prices, and managed distribution. From at least the early Han period iron had become a key industry in connection with salt, and even a major sector in its own right. The link between salt and defense meant that there were many more salt and iron administrators in the north than in the south at this time.

Upon Wudi's death, the monopoly came under broad criticism. In 81 BC, a Salt and Iron Debate, called at court to deliberate over the continuation of the monopoly, turned into a classic confrontation between Confucians and Legalists. On one side, the "literate and virtuous" (wenxue xianliang) Confucians sympathised with the common people and argued against the monopoly that placed such a burden on them. They regarded commerce as incidental (mo) [actually better translated as "of secondary importance"]. The state's true foundation (ben), they argued, was the agrarian economy based on small peasant households. But in the context of a centralised bureaucratic state, neither the Confucians nor the merchants could stand up to bargain with the ruler the way feudal lords did in the medieval West. The Legalists, on the other hand, most of them bureaucrats represented by the powerful Sang Hongyang (152-80 BC), Wudi's privy councillor (dasinong zhongcheng) and chief of fiscal affairs, stressed the financial deficit and the absolute necessity of maintaining the salt monopoly as a prime revenue source. Sang Hongyang won the day because the land tax was insufficient to support the government, but the controversy over salt continued down to the Song era and beyond.

[My note: Sang Hongyang may have won the debate, but he did not live much longer to relish his victory. The following year, he was executed by the new emperor under the influence of Huo Guang, the other powerful minister who was leading the Confucian faction. The salt and iron monopolies were retained but relaxed somewhat, while the wine monopoly was abolished.]

[General_Zhaoyun]

Quite an informative topic..will pinned it up.

[Non-Han Nan Ban]

If I can be of any service, here is a Wiki article that I created recently:

Economy of the Han Dynasty
http://en.wikipedia....the_Han_Dynasty

Eric