22 replies to this topic

[WangKon936]

Would anyone like to talk about Lelang (Lolang or Nangnang in Korean)? Let me start by posting my assessment first. Anyone have anything else to add?

The Han Dynasty first had three commandaries in north and central Korea. The largest was Lelang (Nangnang) and the others were Chenfan (Chinbon) and Lintun (Imdun). The original San Han states in the south of Korea destroyed Chenfan and Lintun. Taifang (Taebang) was established later. In order to placate marauding Sam Han states (particularly Mah Han), Taifang and Lolang gave them royal symbols, trade and culture. Silla and Kaya crowns have some similarities between each other but are completely different from Paekje crowns. The Paekje kings conqured the Mah Han states and the Mah Han states got their crowns from Taifang. Lelang is really the main colony here as Taifang was really a buffer region to seperate Lolang from the Sam Han states. Lolang and Taifang had an enormous influence on all the tribal states of Korea. The contributions of the Chinese commandaries cannot be underestimated, but at the same time, it cannot be overestimated either. Archeology of Lelang clearly indicate a Chinese civilization, but it does not extend beyond the main centers of commerce and administration. The majority of the population in Lolang were still Korean tribal people working for the Chinese administrative headquarters in Anak and Wanggomsong (Pyongyang). Excavation of Lolang tombs indicate people who adopted Chinese dress, art and symbols, but at the same time, these tombs contained a large amount of native Korean artifacts such as shamanistic symbols, bronze and/or stone daggers and unique variations of bronze mirrors that are clearly not of Chinese origin. This can mean that many of even Lelang's upper class were sinofied Koreans. Ultimately, Koguryo conquered Lelang (not mentioning Taifang as it couldn't survive without the existance of Lelang) in the middle of the 4th century AD. The Chinese polulation in Lelang became Koguryo subjects and were completely assimilated. Lolang's administrative capital- Wanggomsong- became Pyongyang, Koguryo's capital. Surnames, such as Hong, Wang and Han, were originally Chinese settlers from Lelang and highlight one of the rare occassions where Chinese people got completely assimilated by natives over time.

The Chinese enjoyed a rich life as colonial overlords in Lelang, living and working among themselves, apart from the local populace. Lelang's new residents brought new concepts and techniques in art, philosophy, architecture, and government administration. The district governor, his staff and other government officials moved about the city in their canopied chariots on streets paved with brick. The Chinese nobility adorned itself with delicate gold jewelry inlaid with semi-precious stones and dined on excellent lacquerware brought from China. Chinese merchants, artisans, and craftsmen made and sold a variety of iron and bronze products including military weapons, chariot fittings, agricultural tools, textiles, and ceramic ware. As the Chinese colonists settled into their new life in a new land, Lelang became an important trade center, carefully watched over by the district military commander and his troops.

[tianzhuwoye]

The Han Dynasty first had three commandaries in north and central Korea. The largest was Lelang (Nangnang) and the others were Chenfan (Chinbon) and Lintun (Imdun). The original San Han states in the south of Korea destroyed Chenfan and Lintun. Taifang (Taebang) was established later.

Ok, what do you have going on over there as far as the locations of some of these things? How far south did the commandaries get, or, how far north can we find the Sam Han? I've seen Wa going through 'Pyeonhan territory' to get to the commandaries but do you have more to say about the interactions between the Sam Han and the sinified areas? Maybe I'm just getting lost from lack of background- Henthorn (1971!) seems to imply that the Sam Han were whatever it was that was south of the commandaries.

I dropped this on another thread and was wondering what other ideas were:

Here’s a rundown and PRC guesses at the locations of some of these badboys:

Nangnang 乐浪: Located at ‘Joseon County’ (Near modern Pyeongyang). Remains of the city were found in the southwest of Pyeong’an Province. Divided into 25 administrative regions.

Jinbeon 真番: Established at Zha 霅 County, the location of which is unknown. Administrative area went west to the Xada Mountains 哈达岭 in present-day Jilin Province, east to the Changbaishan, and southeast to the Yalu River. 15 regions.

Hyeonto 玄菟: During the reign of Han Wudi, located at the city of Woju 沃沮 [this is sometimes mentioned as ‘Okjeo territory’] in the northeast of the peninsula (今朝鲜北道镜城). During Han Zhaodi, it was moved to the ‘city of Koguryeo’ 高句丽城 (on the eastern banks of the Liao), then moved again during the reign of Andi of the eastern Han to the ‘Labor Park’ in modern Fushun. 3 regions.

Imdun 临屯: Located at 日+施 Shi County (today’s Weonsan 元山, North Korea), merged with Nangnang under Han Zhaodi. 15 regions.

Also, Nangnang was taken over by the state set up by the Gongsun Clan near the fall of the Han Empire, and these were the same cats who established Taebang. Outliving the Han's involvement in the area and acting rather independently, the Gongsun's state is considered a separate political entity.

[WangKon936]

Also, Nangnang was taken over by the state set up by the Gongsun Clan near the fall of the Han Empire, and these were the same cats who established Taebang. Outliving the Han's involvement in the area and acting rather independently, the Gongsun's state is considered a separate political entity.

Who is the Gongsun Clan? Did Lolang act independently from the mainland? What was the purpose of Taebang? To administer Mahan?

[tianzhuwoye]

The Gongsun were big military commanders in the Liaodong area "for generations" who had set up an autonomous state in the region at least by the time the Han Empire had its hands full elsewhere. There were a few attempts by the Gongsun to establish a full-blown state of Yan (Wu acknowledged the King of Yan while looking for an alliance after the Gongsun successfully held off a Wei invasion), and Koguryeo referred to its kings as 单于, the traditional title for Xiongnu chieftains. They eventually fell to the Wei, with a little Koguryeo help, in 238. I'm seeing that Taebang was set up 'to reinforce the position of Nangnang,' but these sources don't focus on anything too far south on the peninsula. But yeah, they were politically independent from the Han, described here as 'separatists,' with Gongsun Du proclaiming himself Duke of Liaodong in 190. The《三国志》should have more if anyone's up to help clarify things.

[Yun]

Lelang and Daifang fell to Koguryo in 313, at the beginning of the Age of Fragmentation, i.e. during the fall of the Western Jin to the Xiongnu. The troops in Lelang and Daifang were cut off from external support, and had been fighting off attacks by King Michon (Gao Yifuli) of Koguryo for years. Their commander Zhang Tong, on the advice of his staff officer Wang Zun, led over 1,000 households from these two prefectures/commanderies to seek refuge with the Murong Xianbei in central Liaoning. It is likely that they did so by sailing across the Yellow Sea and around the Liaodong peninsula. Murong Hui actually set up a Lelang prefecture-in-exile (qiaojun) in his territory, and made Zhang Tong the prefect.

[Gweilo]

If you play the city-builder game Emperor:Rise of the Middle Kingdom, you might be interested in downloading the custom campaign I wrote concerning the Gongsun clans rise to power in Koguryo. Click on "The Warlords of Koguryo" for more information. The download zip file also has a text file inside which contains the historical notes I gathered during the research phase of building this campaign. There are also some map images in the zip file. These might be of interest to some, even if you don't play the game.

[DomaHwang]

Lelang (?) seems to be aroung Liao area.
According to 淮南子,
碣石在 遼西界. 朝鮮 樂浪之縣也

About others, I do not know where they were.

I add some now.
The location of Lelang, however, it is still on debate because some Lelang people migrated (?) to Korean peninsular at the end of west Han period. Some east Hang or Wang Mang period remains found in North Korea (the remains are also on debate too ).

Edited by DomaHwang, 14 July 2005 - 04:18 AM.

[wuTao]

Lelang (?) seems to be aroung Liao area.
According to 淮南子,
碣石在 遼西界. 朝鮮 樂浪之縣也

About others, I do not know where they were.

I add some now.
The location of Lelang, however, it is still on debate because some Lelang people migrated (?) to Korean peninsular at the end of west Han period. Some east Hang or Wang Mang period remains found in North Korea (the remains are also on debate too ).

Hmmm... could you provide the Romanization of those sources? I can't read Chinese and want to know where you got your information from.

I believe the evidence that the Han colonies, including Lelang were in Korea. According to Hyung Il Pai from the Department of History, University of California at Santa Barbara (who wrote the book "Constructing Korean Origins: A Critical Review of Archaeology, Historiography, and Racial Myth in Korean State Formation Theories") in her article "Culture contact and culture change: the Korean peninsula and its relations with the Han Dynasty Commandery of Lelang", in the journal "World Archaeology Volume 23 No. 3 Archaeology of Empires", the evidence of the Han Commandaries in Korea is overwhelming. She writes it only seems to be revisionist Korean scholars, specifically Ch’oe in North Korea and led by Yun Nae-hyon in South Korea, that continue to propose this argument, despite the wealth of archaeological evidence. According to her article, Han colonial artifacts have been identified at Lelang (located on the southern bank of the Taedong river facing the present city of P’yongyang) and at Daifeng at Tangt’osong. At Lelang alone, she describes the type of Han artifacts found:

Material from within the core area of the Lelang grave distribution can be divided into the following five groups, on the basis of burials and artifact assemblages:
Group I comprises an all-Han assemblage, and can be regarded as the remains of actual Han officials, such as generals and administrators.
Group II is made up of an assemblage that is exlusively Han, except for a single non-Han native item, in the shape of pottery of hwabunhyong type. This group could possibly represent the powerful, local ruling families that Mikami once defined as the ‘Han resident gentry’; additional evidence for such a view comes from the appearance of names such as Wang, Gao, and Han on seals and inscriptions.
Group III is represented by a mixture of cultural indices, both non-Han native and Han Lelang. Earth pit burials within Han-type wooden coffins contain the Korean slim dagger, hwabunhyong pottery and native bronze weapons, alongside Han bronze mirrors, iron weapons, and cross-bow mechanisms. The most diagnostic element found associated with this grave-type was a Han silver seal, inscribed ‘Fuzuhuojun’ (i.e. the prince of Pujo Yegun); the individual in whose grave this item was buried could be considered as a ‘sinicized inner barbarian’ or a ‘’frontier-guarding barbarian’, who was recognized as a Han vassal by giving up political autonomy voluntarily for favored trade and military status.

In addition, Sarah Nelson from the Department of Anthropology, University of Denver, in her book “The Archaeology of Korea”, also writes she believes that Lelang was in Korea. In page 11, she writes:

Trade interests, settlements of Han Chinese in Korea and the need to secure the northern frontier led to the conquest of northern Korea by the Han dynasty, which established direct rule of the conquered territory. Although disputed by North Koreans, the archaeological evidence leans strongly toward the presence of Han Chinese in the north.

According to Nelson, on page 167:

The area now claimed by China was vast, covering the northern half of the Korean peninsula and parts of Manchuria. It was so large that four Chinese commanderies (called in Korean Nangnag [Lelang], Imdun, Hyondo and Chinbon), each with its own central administration, were required to govern it.

As an example of one of the Han artifacts Nelson writes about is on page 173:

A few artifacts, mostly from the Lelang region, are inscribed with dates. For example, a halberd found near Pyongyang bore an inscription dating it to 222 BC (Gardiner 1969a:8), and a painted lacquer bowl is dated AD 69 (Hamada 1936). A Chinese mirror with a 28-character inscription, made in the imperial factory around the BC/AD turning point, was found at Yangdongni, near Kimhae in the southeast, accompanied by both iron and bronze weapons (Munhwajae 1987).

Yang Hong, from the Institute of Archaeology, Chinese Academy of Social Sciences, Beijing, also presents proof of Chinese conquest in Korea. In his article “Lamellar Armor And Horse Bardings In Yamato And Koguryo And Their Connections with China” in the Journal of East Asian Archaeology, 13876813, 2000, Vol. 2, Issue ¾, he writes

Han-period lamellae of leather were similar in construction and size to iron lamellae and were laced together in a similar fashion, as can be seen in a typical example found in a Western Han tomb at Houjiatang, Changsha (Hunan Sheng 1956). Iron lamellae have also continuously been found at distant sites along the northwestern and northern frontiers of the Han Dynasty and even along the southeastern seaboard--aside from those mentioned above, such as the sites of the fire beacons of the Ejin River valley in Inner Mongolia (Sommarström 1956-8), city sites in the northern part of the Ulan Buh Shamo *(These characters cannot be converted in ASCII text) desert in Inner Mongolia (Hou 1973), and at Chong'anchengcun, Fujian, in the southeast (Fujian Sheng 1960).

Armor has also been found in the Lelang area of the northern Korean peninsula. The wooden chamber tomb of Shiyanli 219 yielded a chest containing a suit of leather armor which, when found, was already in disorder.(n2) The tomb yielded other items including a silver seal (with turtle knob) inscribed "Seal of Wang Genxin," an iron halberd, spearhead, and other metal weapons, and a lacquered crossbow. Despite the condition of the armor, one could still discern that originally there were two kinds of lamellae strung together, all coated with black lacquer. One kind was rectangular in shape measuring 7.4 cm by 3.2 cm, each with seven pairs of holes for stringing them together to make body armor. When found there was still a portion intact, some 50 cm long, consisting of seven rows strung together, each row some 25 cm wide was made up of 12 lamellae. The second sort of lamella was relatively shorter (5.4 cm by 3.6 cm), with eight holes in four pairs; these were probably used to make neck or thigh guards. At another place, an earthen pit tomb yielding an inscribed silver seal (Yi 1968; Paek 1968)--among other objects--also contained iron lamellae rectangular in shape (3.6 cm by 10.4 cm and 0.2 cm thick) and belong to Type I, Class 2 (Figure 1) as defined in the author's book of Western Han armor lamellae (Yang 1985), and these are similar to lamella numbered as T85(2):2 from Ershijiazi (Neimenggu 1975: 255, fig. 11.28).

Therefore, the evidence of Chinese conquest in Korea during the Han is indisputable, in my opinion. Besides Korean historians who deny the overwhelming evidence (and in the process are currently making a joke of Korean histriography), it seems in international academic circles that the Han conquest is universally accepted.

[Pansesus]

Yeah some of the koreans are too sensitive about Chinese occupation 2000 years ago, they deny the cultural relationship between China and Korea and even say that Chinese culture was from Korea and during 16 states period Koguryo conquered half of Chinese region. Well it's just rediculous, and the origin of Koguryo / its relationship with modern Korean is still not very clear yet.

[DomaHwang]

Therefore, the evidence of Chinese conquest in Korea during the Han is indisputable, in my opinion. Besides Korean historians who deny the overwhelming evidence (and in the process are currently making a joke of Korean histriography), it seems in international academic circles that the Han conquest is universally accepted.

About the Chinese history book, please ask Chinese friend how they pronounce.
HoiNamJa (in Korean pronunciation of Chinese letters). It contains information on the location of Lelang (I copied from a web page, and do not have knowledge enough to guide you).

It is true that the formal theory still puts more emphasis on Lelang in North Korean area because of these remains,
The only way to solve this conflict could be...(just my personal thought).
Lelang was at first in Liao area in west Han era.
Lelang expanded to North Korea area and the ruler there became a bit independent from Liao Lelang especially when west Han was close to collapse.
Hmm. It is complex.

Edited by DomaHwang, 18 July 2005 - 05:39 AM.

[tianzhuwoye]

That line is from the Huainanzi, written during the Western Han. It mentions a tablet marking Joseon and Nangnang and places it out west, in the Liao River area.

[Gubook Janggoon]

Can you bring up any proof that the artifacts were being destroyed?

I've seen pictures of the Gwanggaeto Stele in the middle of farm fields.

[This I don't have a picture of, but I'm working on it.]

Old Goguryeoan Fortress walls reduced to being used as planters for lawns as apartments rose up all around them.

http://goguryeo.org/...gnaeseong-7.jpg
http://goguryeo.org/...naeseong-10.jpg
http://goguryeo.org/...gnaeseong-4.jpg
http://goguryeo.org/...gnaeseong-9.jpg
http://goguryeo.org/...naeseong-15.jpg
http://goguryeo.org/...gnaeseong-6.jpg

The tomb of King Gwanggaeto the Great, in the midst of a farm.

http://goguryeo.org/...aeto-tomb-3.jpg

Not to mention the fact that the Goguryeoan pyramids were overgrown with weeds and other such nasty debris. Since when were these pyramids meant to be green?

http://img225.images...zangkun37vo.jpg
http://img106.images...dscn08614pg.jpg
http://img225.images...847051326cc.jpg

And you know what? It just made my blood boil.

Thank God that the PRC finally decided to protect those sites.

But thanks for letting us know that all Korea does is spout Nationalistic Propaganda. I'm glad you informed us. Now I know that Scary Nationalism may soon overtake Kimchi as the most produced product in Korea. It's good to keep up with the times eh?

I find it sad that you seem to only see what you want to see. Extreme Korean nationalism by no means affects the mainstream of Korean academia.

::grumbles::

[wuTao]

Perhaps this discussion should be closed? Not only is there not any proof for any of kaixin's claims, the discussion seems to serve no purpose, except to provoke hateful responses against Koreans.

[Yun]

GJ's ironic response to Kaixin's post was meant to argue that if Koreans are destroying artifacts of Lelang, they're not the only ones doing it. The PRC isn't exactly taking good care of the Koguryo sites either. He also resents the simplistic assertion that Koreans are the only ultranationalists in the whole nasty brew. So I hope no one missed his sarcasm and thought he was actually bashing Korea.

Why would Korean nationalists cover up the existence of Lelang, since it was precisely Koguryo that kicked the Chinese out from Lelang in the early 4th century? They'd be all too happy to promote this as evidence that Koguryo was not Chinese.

[I am merging this with our previous thread on Lelang.]

[thirdgumi]

Not to mention the fact that the Goguryeoan pyramids were overgrown with weeds and other such nasty debris. Since when were these pyramids meant to be green?

Nice pictures, where are those pyramids now?