[phoenix_bladen]

this is what i found so far in wikipedia.....

Dungan language
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
The Dungan language (autonym: khueuzwu yuuyan; 东干语 [東干語] in Chinese) is a language spoken by the 50,000 Dungan or (Hui) of Central Asia, including Kyrgyzstan, Kazakhstan, and Uzbekistan, Russia. This ethnic group may be the descendants of prisoners-of-war brought to China in the 14th Century, and migrated west from China into Central Asia.

Although in vocabulary and structure, the language is not very different from Mandarin Chinese, it is unique in that it is the only variation of the Chinese language which is not normally written using Chinese characters. Originally the Dungan, being Muslim, wrote their language using Arabic characters. However the Soviet Union banned all Arabic scripts in the late 1920s. A Roman alphabet lasted until 1940, when the current Cyrillic alphabet was enforced. Like other Chinese languages, Dungan is tonal. There are two main dialects, one with 4 tones, and the other, upon which the writing system is based, has 3 tones, but this is not indicated in writing.

Dungan is most akin to the dialects of Mandarin spoken in the provinces of Shaanxi and Gansu. However, it contains many Russian, Arabic, and Persian loanwords. It forms most new words, however, using its own resources, as Chinese does. It is used in the school system.

Dungan alphabet: А/а, Б/б, В/в, Г/г, Д/д, Е/е, Ё/ё, Ж/ж, Җ/җ, З/з, И/и, Й/й, К/к, Л/л, М/м, Н/н, Ң/ң, Ә/ә, О/о, П/п, Р/р, С/с, Т/т, У/у, Ў/ў, Ү/ү, Ф/ф, Х/х, Ц/ц, Ч/ч, Ш/ш, Щ/щ, Ъ/ъ, Ы/ы, Ь/ь, Э/э, Ю/ю, Я/я


does anyone know more about it and how does it sound like ?

[nishishei]

phoenix_bladen, on Jul 30 2005, 07:09 AM, said:

this is what i found so far in wikipedia.....

Dungan language
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
The Dungan language (autonym: khueuzwu yuuyan; 东干语 [東干語] in Chinese) is a language spoken by the 50,000 Dungan or (Hui) of Central Asia, including Kyrgyzstan, Kazakhstan, and Uzbekistan, Russia. This ethnic group may be the descendants of prisoners-of-war brought to China in the 14th Century, and migrated west from China into Central Asia.

Although in vocabulary and structure, the language is not very different from Mandarin Chinese, it is unique in that it is the only variation of the Chinese language which is not normally written using Chinese characters. Originally the Dungan, being Muslim, wrote their language using Arabic characters. However the Soviet Union banned all Arabic scripts in the late 1920s. A Roman alphabet lasted until 1940, when the current Cyrillic alphabet was enforced. Like other Chinese languages, Dungan is tonal. There are two main dialects, one with 4 tones, and the other, upon which the writing system is based, has 3 tones, but this is not indicated in writing.

Dungan is most akin to the dialects of Mandarin spoken in the provinces of Shaanxi and Gansu. However, it contains many Russian, Arabic, and Persian loanwords. It forms most new words, however, using its own resources, as Chinese does. It is used in the school system.

Dungan alphabet: А/а, Б/б, В/в, Г/г, Д/д, Е/е, Ё/ё, Ж/ж, Җ/җ, З/з, И/и, Й/й, К/к, Л/л, М/м, Н/н, Ң/ң, Ә/ә, О/о, П/п, Р/р, С/с, Т/т, У/у, Ў/ў, Ү/ү, Ф/ф, Х/х, Ц/ц, Ч/ч, Ш/ш, Щ/щ, Ъ/ъ, Ы/ы, Ь/ь, Э/э, Ю/ю, Я/я
does anyone know more about it and how does it sound like ?

It sounds like northwestern Mandarin dialects, because it is a northwestern Mandarin dialect. The ancestors of these people did not write in Arabic as the article above says, instead they were illiterate. The Soviet government during its "multicultural" heyday designed a Roman and later a Cyrillic based script for them. Also, these people DEFINITELY DID NOT reach Central Asia during the 14th century as the above article says; instead it should be around 18th to 19th century.

It is special because it's the only Sinitic (Chinese) language to NOT use Chinese characters in its official settings. Romanization (in this case Cyrillization) advocates use Dungan to show that romanization can be achieved for Chinese.


Here is a poem ("Summer", “夏天”) in Dungan (transliterated into Roman letters from the Cyrillic):

"Hsyatyan"
Hsyatyan tyanchi chon,
Hwuzhya bu hsinkhuon.
Tanni tei chinhsyuan,
Chyochyor luan zhyokhuan.
Zhuonzhya ye kho kan,
Hwuzhya ye hsikhuan.

"Summer"
In summer the days are long,
The farmers are at ease.
In the fields all is freshness,
And birds are calling everywhere.
The crops are beautiful,
And the fanners are happy.

[tongyan]

nishishei, on Jul 31 2005, 02:18 PM, said:

It sounds like northwestern Mandarin dialects, because it is a northwestern Mandarin dialect.  The ancestors of these people did not write in Arabic as the article above says, instead they were illiterate. The Soviet government during its "multicultural" heyday designed a Roman and later a Cyrillic based script for them.  Also, these people DEFINITELY DID NOT reach Central Asia during the 14th century as the above article says; instead it should be around 18th to 19th century.

It is special because it's the only Sinitic (Chinese) language to NOT use Chinese characters in its official settings.  Romanization (in this case Cyrillization) advocates use Dungan to show that romanization can be achieved for Chinese.
Here is a poem ("Summer", “夏天”) in Dungan (transliterated into Roman letters from the Cyrillic):

"Hsyatyan"
Hsyatyan tyanchi chon,
Hwuzhya bu hsinkhuon.
Tanni tei chinhsyuan,
Chyochyor luan zhyokhuan.
Zhuonzhya ye kho kan,
Hwuzhya ye hsikhuan.

"Summer"
In summer the days are long,
The farmers are at ease.
In the fields all is freshness,
And birds are calling everywhere.
The crops are beautiful,
And the fanners are happy.

would you happen to have the hanzi to this poem? you know, just so people can see how the romanization corresponds to the characters? i mean, i can guess some of them but others are just a puzzle to me.

[qrasy]

phoenix_bladen, on Jul 30 2005, 02:09 PM, said:

Dungan alphabet: А/а, Б/б, В/в, Г/г, Д/д, Е/е, Ё/ё, Ж/ж, Җ/җ, З/з, И/и, Й/й, К/к, Л/л, М/м, Н/н, Ң/ң, Ә/ә, О/о, П/п, Р/р, С/с, Т/т, У/у, Ў/ў, Ү/ү, Ф/ф, Х/х, Ц/ц, Ч/ч, Ш/ш, Щ/щ, Ъ/ъ, Ы/ы, Ь/ь, Э/э, Ю/ю, Я/я
does anyone know more about it and how does it sound like ?

It's sometimes considered non-Mandarin but I think it's just political.
http://www.ethnologu...asp?subid=90150

nishishei, on Aug 1 2005, 03:18 AM, said:

It sounds like northwestern Mandarin dialects, because it is a northwestern Mandarin dialect.  The ancestors of these people did not write in Arabic as the article above says, instead they were illiterate.

Although there was no official writing, there should be ones who tried to write their language in Arabic. (So do some of my native Indonesian non-Malay friends)

Quote

Also, these people DEFINITELY DID NOT reach Central Asia during the 14th century as the above article says; instead it should be around 18th to 19th century.

In 14th century Mandarin had already existed, hadn't it?
So where do you get the info?

tongyan, on Aug 1 2005, 05:23 AM, said:

would you happen to have the hanzi to this poem? you know, just so people can see how the romanization corresponds to the characters? i mean, i can guess some of them but others are just a puzzle to me.

Yeah. I can guess only a part of them.

Quote

"Summer"
In summer the days are long,
The farmers are at ease.
In the fields all is freshness,
And birds are calling everywhere.
The crops are beautiful,
And the farmers are happy.

"Hsyatyan" 夏天
Hsyatyan tyanchi chon, 夏天 天气 长
Hwuzhya bu hsinkhuon. ？？不 辛苦？
Tanni tei chinhsyuan, Tani 地 新鲜 ? ?
Chyochyor luan zhyokhuan. 处处 ？ ？？
Zhuonzhya ye kho kan,庄稼 也 好看
Hwuzhya ye hsikhuan. ？？ 也 喜欢

This post has been edited by qrasy: 31 July 2005 - 10:55 PM

[nishishei]

qrasy, on Aug 1 2005, 03:51 AM, said:

"Hsyatyan" 夏天
Hsyatyan tyanchi chon, 夏天 天气 长
Hwuzhya bu hsinkhuon. ？？不 辛苦？
Tanni tei chinhsyuan, Tani 地 新鲜 ? ?
Chyochyor luan zhyokhuan. 处处 ？ ？？
Zhuonzhya ye kho kan,庄稼 也 好看
Hwuzhya ye hsikhuan. ？？ 也 喜欢

"Hsyatyan"
Hsyatyan tyanchi chon,
Hwuzhya bu hsinkhuon.
Tanni tei chinhsyuan,
Chyochyor luan zhyokhuan.
Zhuonzhya ye kho kan,
Hwuzhya ye hsikhuan.

夏天
夏天天气长
物家（农民）不心慌
田里太（多）清鲜
雀雀儿乱叫唤
庄稼也好看
物家（农民）也喜欢

Hwuzhya （物家） is probably a 土语 term that I am not familiar with, but looks Sinitic.
雀雀儿 is a common northern term for birds.
tanni is obviously 田里
zhyokhuan is 叫唤
hsinkhuon is 心慌

qrasy said:

In 14th century Mandarin had already existed, hadn't it?
So where do you get the info?

Because the bulk of Dungans escaped MANCHURIAN/QING persecution of muslims in northwestern China. Also, their language is obviously not the Mandarin of the 14th century, but very much CONTEMPORARY Mandarin. Mandarin of the 14th century pronouced 心、新 as Sin, not Hsin; and polysyllabic words like 天气、庄稼 were not colloquially used during the 14th century.

Also don't just take my word for it,
"Dungans fled from Manchu and Chinese persecution over a hundred years ago after an abortive rebellion."
-From "Two Non-Tetragraphic Northern Sinitic Languages," by Victor Mair. Sino-Platonic Papers No. 18 (May 1990).

[qrasy]

nishishei, do you have the original Cyrillic version of the poem? (contains sound values not representable in plain Latin)
Also, do they add tones in the modern writing scheme? Or is it like 'pinyin without tones'?

nishishei, on Aug 1 2005, 12:58 PM, said:

Because the bulk of Dungans escaped MANCHURIAN/QING persecution of muslims in northwestern China.

Why does that happen? How about the Uygurs etc. how did they survive?

This post has been edited by qrasy: 01 August 2005 - 01:20 AM

[nishishei]

qrasy, on Aug 1 2005, 06:19 AM, said:

Also, do they add tones in the modern writing scheme? Or is it like 'pinyin without tones'?

The orthography does not show tones. But dungan does have 3 or 4 tones similar to Mandarin's 4 tones (no Rusheng).

[kaixin]

The article was mis-written.

They were probably trying to say that the ancestors of the Hui were Central Asians (ie Turkics and Persians) brought into China by the Mongols during Yuan Dynasty. This is only partially true. There were Muslims in China even before Yuan. And, I heard that Han soldiers who served Muslim generals in the Yuan, often converted themselves. In reality, the Hui are more "Han" than is acknowledged. Maybe DNA testing can clear all of this.

Some Uygur dialects (esp. near Komul/Hami) have a strong Chinese influence and accent IMO.

[qrasy]

kaixin, on Aug 1 2005, 02:27 PM, said:

In reality, the Hui are more "Han" than is acknowledged.  Maybe DNA testing can clear all of this.

Genetically, by Immunoglobuline and HLA test, it's proven that Hui (in Gansu/Ningxia) are North Chinese. Most of them, if not all, also look Chinese. They don't want to join Han because of their religion.

But these 2 tests are not very reliable since they will mutate according to climate and endemic diseases. A few generations will make them change according to geography, and it's possible for unrelated groups to generate the same immune genes.

There also another non-Uygur muslim, Tsat, in HaiNan but they are actually from Cham.

[tongyan]

qrasy, on Aug 1 2005, 01:47 AM, said:

Genetically, by Immunoglobuline and HLA test, it's proven that Hui (in Gansu/Ningxia) are North Chinese. Most of them, if not all, also look Chinese. They don't want to join Han because of their religion.

But these 2 tests are not very reliable since they will mutate according to climate and endemic diseases. A few generations will make them change according to geography, and it's possible for unrelated groups to generate the same immune genes.

There also another non-Uygur muslim, Tsat, in HaiNan but they are actually from Cham.

when exactly did the tsat move from cham to hainan?
i would imagine that the tsat are small in number and probably heavily influenced by the surrounding sino-tibetan and miao-yao linguistic groups.

[qrasy]

tongyan, on Aug 3 2005, 12:02 PM, said:

when exactly did the tsat move from cham to hainan?
i would imagine that the tsat are small in number and probably heavily influenced by the surrounding sino-tibetan and miao-yao linguistic groups.

It's closely after 982, when the Northern Capital of Cham fell to Vietnamese.
Their language, which had been influenced very much by Mon-Khmer, then was influenced by Sino-Tibetan(Chinese) and Tai-Kadai(remember Hlai/Li-Zu?)
And finally they 'invented' contour pitches ('tones') by eliminating 'weak' endings like -h and glottal stop.

The tonogenesis formed in the native vocabs (named after Old Chinese tonogenesis categories):
'Yang-Ping' 11
'Yin-Ping' 33
'Yang-Shang/Ru' 42
'Yin-Shang/Ru' 24
'Qu' 55

you can refer to this article:
http://www.csuchico....s/SEALS_XII.pdf