[Kongmingx]

Now, I have heard alot about Yue Fei, his attacks against the "Jurchens", his victories, his tatoo, and his death.

My questions are as follows-

Would you rate Yue Fei as the greatest Chinese general of all time?

Is he greater than Han Xin, Yue Yi, Xiang Yu, or Cao Cao?

Do you think he deserves to be God of War rather than Guan Yu?

Is there an article or link that has detailed information on him, his life, or his military career?

[General_Zhaoyun]

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Is there an article or link that has detailed information on him, his life, or his military career?

Yue Fei was considered by China as a military hero. He was famous for his loyalty
in particular for his so-called "Jing Zhong Bao Guo" 精忠报国 (deep loyality to repay the country). It was said that his mum inscribed those words on his back to remind him of loyalty.

There is a short history about him at

http://www.no1190.co...asp?NewsID=1753

I should briefly translate them into english:

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(1103～1142) 中国南宋军事家。字鹏举，相州汤阴(今属河南)人。出身农家。少时习武，喜读兵书战策，曾从军抗辽。靖康元年(1126)，复投军抗金，因作战勇敢升秉义郎。高宗即位后，上书反对南迁被革职。后随河北招抚使张所等在黄河南北抗击金军,屡建战功。

(1103-1142), Southern Song's Military Figure. Styled Name "Peng Ju", born at Xiangzhou Yangying (belonging to Henan province today). He was born into a farmer's family. At a young age, he began learning martial arts and reading military books and learning military strategy. In 1126, he joined the Song army to resist against the Jurchen (Jin). Because of his bravery, he was promoted to Geng Yilang. During Emperor Gaozong's time, because of his opposition to move the capital from north to south, he was sacked from his position. Later he joined the recruitment army by Zhang Suo at Huanghe to resist against the Jurchen and had continous victory.

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建炎三年(1129),金将完颜宗弼渡江南进，岳飞时任江淮宣抚使司右军统制，率部转战广德(今属安徽)、宜兴（今属江苏）地区，袭扰金军，多次获胜。次年春，金军自临安（今杭州）撤军北还，岳飞率部至牛头山(今南京西南)夜袭金营，侦知金军撤离建康（今南京），挥师追击，大败金军，收复建康，升任通泰镇抚使。　　绍兴三年(1133)，金扶植的刘豫政权派军攻占襄阳（今属湖北）等郡。岳飞提出先取襄阳等六郡，进图中原的方略，得到宋廷采纳。次年四月，自江州（今江西九江）挥师北上，大败刘豫军，收复六郡，因功授清远军节度使。此后，他营田屯兵，安抚民众，为进军中原打下了基础。

In 1129, the Jurchen general Wanyan Zongbi invaded Song. Yuefei led the forces against Jurchen and crushed the Jin army at Guangde, Yixin. In 1130, the Jin army retreated northwards and Yuefei decided to raid the Jin camps, restored and defeated the Jin army at Jiankang. In 1133. Jin invaded Xiangyang and Yuefei proposed a strategy to recover the 6 provinces around Xiangyang and it was adopted by the Song court. In 1134 April, Yuefei defeated Liu Yu's Jin army and restored the 6 provinces and established a foundation for attacking central China.

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　　五年夏，岳飞奉宋廷之命镇压洞庭湖地区的杨幺农民起义军。六年，任湖北京西路宣抚副使，一反宋军历年秋季多行防御的常法，举兵奇袭刘豫军。以部分兵力东向蔡州（今河南汝南）诱其来攻，主力自襄阳出击伊阳（今河南嵩县），收复今豫西、陕南大片失地，取得重大胜利。

In 1135, Yuefei was ordered by the Song court to crush the rebellion at Lake Dongting. In 1136, he reversed Song's usual policy of defence to openly attack Liu Yu's Jin army. He put his partial forces to attack Caizhou, while concentrating his forces against Yiyang and restored Yuxi, Xianan's region, scoring a big victory.

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七年，岳飞乘金朝废除刘豫之机，提出举兵收复中原的主张，后多次上书反对与金议和，均遭高宗和宰相秦桧拒绝。十年，完颜宗弼毁约南进。岳飞按照其连结河朔进军中原的方略，遣将联络北方义军，袭扰金军后方；自率主力北上，在民众配合下，充分发挥士气旺盛、训练有素等有利条件，在郾城、颍昌之战中大破金军精骑，击败金军主力。　　正当岳飞行将渡河时,高宗、秦桧却向金乞和,诏令各路宋军回师，致使岳飞恢复中原的计划功败垂成。次年，回临安，被解除兵权，改授枢密副使。十二月二十九，被高宗、秦桧以“莫须有”的罪名杀害。

In 1137, Yuefei made full use of the chance when Jin sacked Liu Yu and came up with the tactic of restoring central China. He petitioned several times opposing a peace treaty with Jin, but was rejected by Emperor Gaozong and Premier Qinkuai. In 1140, Wanyan Zongbi of Jin violated the treaty and attack Song. Yuefei adopted the tactics of restoring central China and in alliance with northern rebels attacked the Jin army from the back. He led a major force against the north and with the support of the people, the Yuefei army's morale was very high and under the condition of well-training, defeated the Jin's cavalry at Yan city, and Xingchang. When Yuefei decided to invade north, he was suddenly called back by Emperor Gaozong and Qinkuai, preventing Yuefei's plan to be thwarted.

After returning to the captial, he was stripped of his military power and on december 29, under the guise of 'unfounded guilt', he was executed.

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　　岳飞富韬略，善用兵，博采众谋，团结民众。作战指挥机智灵活，不拘常法。强调运用之妙存乎一心。他严于治军，重视选将,信赏明罚,爱护士卒。其军以“冻死不拆屋，饿死不掳掠”(《宋史·岳飞传》)著称，被誉为“岳家军”。金军叹服:“撼山易,撼岳家军难！” 　　　　　　　　　

Yuefei was full of military strategy and tactics. He was able to unite the masses. During the war, he was able to flexibly command the army, not sticking to the old rules. He stressed on flexible application above all. In terms of ruling the army, he was very strict, emphasised on using quality generals and rewards based on merits. Yuefei's army was famous for being 'rather freezing to death than destroying the house, rather starve to death than being captured' according to the "Song History -Biography of Yuefei". Jin army commented "shaking the mountain is easy, but shaking the Yuefei army is difficult"

This post has been edited by General_Zhaoyun: 12 August 2004 - 10:55 AM

[General_Zhaoyun]

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Would you rate Yue Fei as the greatest Chinese general of all time?

He is one of the greatest.. but IMO, not the greatest. Too bad, Yuefei did not have the support of the Song emperor, as Emperor Gaozong was a real coward.

There are many other great chinese generals such as Huo Qubing and Wei Qing of Han dynasty (famous for their campaign against Xiongnu). Other famous generals of Tang dynasty include Li Jing, Li Ji, Guo Ziyi etc.

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Is he greater than Han Xin, Yue Yi, Xiang Yu, or Cao Cao?

Greater than Xiang Yu, but not greater than Han Xin and Cao Cao

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Do you think he deserves to be God of War rather than Guan Yu?

God of war means to be victorious in every battle. I don't think he deserves it, b'cos he doesn't have the support of the emperor. Guan Yu has the support. Plus, Guanyu scored major victory in many battles.

[Tyler]

Kongmingx, on Aug 12 2004, 12:31 PM, said:

Would you rate Yue Fei as the greatest Chinese general of all time?

Kongmingx, on Aug 12 2004, 12:31 PM, said:

Is he greater than Han Xin, Yue Yi, Xiang Yu, or Cao Cao?

No sadly I but characters such as Guan Yu, Zhang Liao, Lu Meng, Zhou Yun. They all won important battle and they had more than just a good fighting record they had great loyalty and combined strategy and fighting to a reconizable level. And by all means he is not at Cao Cao's level, might cunning strategy knoledge vassels. Cao Cao was trully fit for a time of warfare.

Kongmingx, on Aug 12 2004, 12:31 PM, said:

Do you think he deserves to be God of War rather than Guan Yu?

I don't think he should, What Yue Fei did throughout his life was great but it cannot compair to Guan Yu. Guan Yu's 1842th birthday just happened on August 9 and feastivals where everywhere. Does Yue Fei have any feastivals.




But I am always looking for new opinions maybe someone can convince me he is better than these people stated.

[Kongmingx]

Thanks.

Well, I was also wondering if Yue Fei was a good warrior because I think I might have read somewhere that he was always in the front lines, was injured a few times, and was an expert with a spear.

That brings me to my next question about Yue Fei. I know that some guy(Qin Kai or something) told the Emperor of Song that he was a traitor ect, but why? Was he jealous of Yue Fei? Or was it that Yue Fei was going on Northern Expeditions eventhough he wasnt supposed to?

I also can seem to understand why the Song Emperor of the time would want him not to go to war, I mean....he was accomplishing great things, wasnt he? Why hold him back? Jin(Jurchen) was the enemy, and Yue Fei was crushing them in nearly every battle.

My other questions regarding Yue Fei are-

What was the battle where his very small force(I think like 800) crushed the huge Jin army?

And what position did he start off in? I know he joined the Song army as a youth, and left later because of political reasons, and later came back to whoop some more Jin behind...but what was he, a calvary commander?

Finally, when did Yue Fei die and was he ever in a duel with an enemy commander(or soldier ect.)?

Oh! Also, I dont think there is one(although I dearly wish t read it) but is his bio from Songzhi translated into English?

Thanks again.

[Moping4U]

Liu Ce, on Aug 12 2004, 04:59 PM, said:

Kongmingx, on Aug 12 2004, 12:31 PM, said:

Would you rate Yue Fei as the greatest Chinese general of all time?

Kongmingx, on Aug 12 2004, 12:31 PM, said:

Is he greater than Han Xin, Yue Yi, Xiang Yu, or Cao Cao?

No sadly I but characters such as Guan Yu, Zhang Liao, Lu Meng, Zhou Yun. They all won important battle and they had more than just a good fighting record they had great loyalty and combined strategy and fighting to a reconizable level. And by all means he is not at Cao Cao's level, might cunning strategy knoledge vassels. Cao Cao was trully fit for a time of warfare.

Kongmingx, on Aug 12 2004, 12:31 PM, said:

Do you think he deserves to be God of War rather than Guan Yu?

I don't think he should, What Yue Fei did throughout his life was great but it cannot compair to Guan Yu. Guan Yu's 1842th birthday just happened on August 9 and feastivals where everywhere. Does Yue Fei have any feastivals.




But I am always looking for new opinions maybe someone can convince me he is better than these people stated.

Yue Fei was undefeated in battle. Guan Yu's fighting/battle record was highly embellished due to the Three Kingdoms novel. The killing of Huo Xiong, passing 5 gates and killing 6 generals, his Green dragon Crescent Dao are all made up by Luo Guangzhong. Yue Fei represented loyalty, righteousness, piety, courage, and patrioitism. Everything Guan Yu had plus more.

Yue Fei didn't have festivals or being the god of war was probably because during the Qing dynasty the Manchus were the descendents of the Jurchens, and having Han hero who beat their ancestors around wasn't a good idea. So they heavily promoted Guan Yu instead.

Zhang Liao, Lu Meng, Zhou Yun, again alot of these people's exploits were made up by the novel. Besides the Three Kingdoms period was basically a civil war between the Hans but Yue Fei was fighting a entire foreign enemy(and rebels as well).

[Moping4U]

Kongmingx, on Aug 12 2004, 05:00 PM, said:

Thanks.

Well, I was also wondering if Yue Fei was a good warrior because I think I might have read somewhere that he was always in the front lines, was injured a few times, and was an expert with a spear.

That brings me to my next question about Yue Fei. I know that some guy(Qin Kai or something) told the Emperor of Song that he was a traitor ect, but why? Was he jealous of Yue Fei? Or was it that Yue Fei was going on Northern Expeditions eventhough he wasnt supposed to?

I also can seem to understand why the Song Emperor of the time would want him not to go to war, I mean....he was accomplishing great things, wasnt he? Why hold him back? Jin(Jurchen) was the enemy, and Yue Fei was crushing them in nearly every battle.

My other questions regarding Yue Fei are-

What was the battle where his very small force(I think like 800) crushed the huge Jin army?

And what position did he start off in? I know he joined the Song army as a youth, and left later because of political reasons, and later came back to whoop some more Jin behind...but what was he, a calvary commander?

Finally, when did Yue Fei die and was he ever in a duel with an enemy commander(or soldier ect.)?

Oh! Also, I dont think there is one(although I dearly wish t read it) but is his bio from Songzhi translated into English?

Thanks again.

Apparently there were several martial arts that was "created" by him(Xingyi, Eagle Claw) but that is doubtful. But he is noted to be a great spear master(his spear's name is Liquan?) and archer(drawing a bow of several hundred jin). His master is supposedly Zhou Tong.

He was recalled back by the emperor becoz if he really did reclaimed the North AND the two former Song emperors, Gaozong's position on the throne would be threatened, and the risk of Yue Fei being too popular made the emperor and conservatives in court nervous(since the Song learned form the Tang of powerful and popular generals with too much power). He might actually usurp the throne for himself so they believed. And there's also a theory that Qin Kuei was a spy for the Jin since he himself and his wife was captured along with the two old empeors at Kaifeng, but somehow he managed to get back to south Song. So that is highly suspicious.

The battle where he lead 800 cavalry men into the 100,000 Jin army was Zhuxianzhen. And he died in 1141. Not sure if he duel anyone, I want to know too.

[Moping4U]

General_Zhaoyun, on Aug 12 2004, 04:01 PM, said:

God of war means to be victorious in every battle. I don't think he deserves it, b'cos he doesn't have the support of the emperor. Guan Yu has the support. Plus, Guanyu scored major victory in many battles.

Yue Fei = undefeated in battle. Guan Yu = captured and beheaded. Besides Guan Yu only has support from the Shu emperor(the smallest of the three kingdoms) and legitamacy was going three ways betwwen Shu, Wu, and Wei. What does having the support of the emperor have to do with being God of War? The most important are qualities represented and battle record and skills. And Yue Fei scored many major victories(Nanjing, Luoyang) against Jin and recovered territory. Guan Yu couldn't even hold on to Jingzhou.

[Tyler]

Moping4U, on Aug 12 2004, 06:58 PM, said:

What does having the support of the emperor have to do with being God of War?

If you are the emperor you have the imprial seal. With the imperial seal you are called the son of heaven. If you want to be a god dosn't it make sense to have the son of heaven on your side?

[Moping4U]

Liu Ce, on Aug 12 2004, 07:09 PM, said:

Moping4U, on Aug 12 2004, 06:58 PM, said:

What does having the support of the emperor have to do with being God of War?

If you are the emperor you have the imprial seal. With the imperial seal you are called the son of heaven. If you want to be a god dosn't it make sense to have the son of heaven on your side?

No. Was Liu Bei really considered the son of heaven? Did he rule ALL of China? Everything at the end of the Han dynasty points that it has lost the mandate of heaven. The mandate of heaven is a political tool. Besides did Buddha need an emperor's seal to become Budhha, did the Jade emperor need his papers stamped by the imperial seal to be the Jade emperor? Remember that people make themselves emperors, not heaven. People set up dynasties. If I am emperor, I would've made myself god, would that make sense? Dyansties and emperors are the creations of humans. People choose who they want to worship.

[General_Zhaoyun]

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What was the battle where his very small force(I think like 800) crushed the huge Jin army?

I think it was the battle of Sisui, where Yuefei's 500 cavalry crushed the huge Jin army. Actually, Yuefei's army laid an ambush against the Jin army. The Jin army thought it was a big army from Song, so they fled and Yuefei's army intercepted them.

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And what position did he start off in? I know he joined the Song army as a youth, and left later because of political reasons, and later came back to whoop some more Jin behind...but what was he, a calvary commander?

His first position is a 'death warrior" when he joined the army at the age of 19 (in 1122 AD). This is almost equivalent to a captain and his first battle was the joint battle of Jin and Song against Liao.

[Yun]

Yep. Yue Fei's first experience of battle was in the disastrous Song attack on Beijing led by Tong Guan in 1122. From an earlier thread on the military weakness of the Song dynasty:

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The Liao cavalry was being beaten in every battle with the Jurchen, including 700,000 Liao troops personally led by the emperor against 10,000 Jurchen at Hubuda Ridge 护步答冈 in 1115. But when the Song forces marched up to Beijing in 1122 as part of the combined Jurchen-Song attack on the Liao, the Liao cavalry soundly defeated them twice at the Lugou Bridge 芦沟桥. This illustrates just how much stronger the Jurchen cavalry must have been than the Song.

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What was the battle where his very small force(I think like 800) crushed the huge Jin army?

This battle took place on 28 August 1140, according to the Western calendar. It was the climax of Yue Fei's career (although he didn't fight in it himself), and also what led directly to his framing and death the following year. It can't actually be called the Battle of Zhuxianzhen, because his front scouts only advanced to Zhuxianzhen four days later (1 September). But the battle, which is better described as the Battle of Yingchang 颍昌, was crucical in bringing Yue Fei's army within striking distance of Kaifeng. He would have gone on to retake the old capital at last, if the Song emperor did not send him at this point 12 successive recall orders (the famous "tablets with golden words"). On 2 September, Yue Fei gave the order to withdraw.

This is the sequence of events leading up to the battle:

In late June 1140, following Liu Qi's great victory over the Jin offensive into the Huai River at the Battle of Shunchang, Yue Fei takes the offensive towards Kaifeng. By late July, Yue's vanguard has taken Yingchang (modern Xuchang) and Zhengzhou, and by late August, Luoyang has been taken along with several other cities. The people in Henan are rising up to form rebel armies in support of Yue Fei.

22 August: 15,000 elite Jin cavalry, including the flanking "guaizima" and the heavily armoured "iron pagodas", attack Yue Fei's army at Yancheng (Yan City). Yue Fei uses mazhadao and pole-axes to defeat the Jin cavalry, and his general Yang Zaixing nearly captures the Jin commander Wanyan Wushu.

24 August: Wanyan Wushu sends a force to Wulidian, just north of Yancheng, and prepares to launch another attack. A scouting force of 50 cavalry under Yue Fei's general Wang Gang discovers this army and immediately engages it in battle. Yue Fei leads his main force out in support, and the Jin retreat having lost the element of surprise.

Wanyan Wushu decides to change his strategy and attack Yingchang with 120,000 men so as to cut off Yue Fei's communications with Zhengzhou and Luoyang in the west. He also stations a force at Linying county to ambush Yue Fei if Yue moves out to reinforce Yingchang.

27 August: Yang Zaixing while patrolling north of Yancheng with a few hundred cavalry encounters the Jin army on its way to attack Yingchang. At Xiaoshang Bridge, Yang leads his force against the Jin despite being terribly outnumbered, and manages to kill more than 2,000 Jin soldiers, including more than a hundred officers. But the Song force is finally surrounded and wiped out, with Yang Zaixing shot to death with arrows while trying to cross the Xiaoshang River. Soon, the Song general Zhang Xian leads a larger army to the scene and repels the Jin army. Yang Zaixing's body is later recovered and cremated, and among the ashes are found 1.34 litres worth of arrowheads. Yue Fei mourns greatly for him.

Yue Fei perceives that the Jin army is moving to attack Yingchang, and sends his son Yue Yun with an army to reinforce the Yingchang garrison under Wang Gui.

28 August: Sure enough, in the morning an advance force of 30,000 under Wanyan Wushu attacks Yingchang. Wang Gui and Yue Yun engage the enemy west of the city with Yue Fei's crack cavalry units, the Youyi and Beiwei armies respectively. Yue Yun, wielding a pair of iron maces, leads 800 cavalry of the Beiwei army to charge into the heart of the Jin army, while the Song infantry envelop it on both flanks. The battle lasts into the afternoon with both sides getting increasingly exhuasted, and at this point the city's garrison sally out led by Dong Xian and Hu Qing. The Jin army breaks and flees back to Kaifeng. Its morale has collapsed, and Kaifeng is within grasp. But then comes the recall order, and Yue Fei makes his fateful choice to obey.

[freedom]

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I don't think he should, What Yue Fei did throughout his life was great but it cannot compair to Guan Yu. Guan Yu's 1842th birthday just happened on August 9 and feastivals where everywhere. Does Yue Fei have any feastivals.

You guys really into GUan Yu? In my opinion, ZhaoYun is just as equivalent as him. Its jsut that Guan Yu let CaoCao go at HuaRonGDao during ChiBi. Bascially that made him into a god.
Also GUan Yu got too cocky after he defeated PangDe and Yu Jin, and he let down his guard on LuXun, eventaully that cuased his death.

I would rate YueFei over GuanYu. YueFei is helping his people fight for an invading race (Jin), and that is WAY greater than GuanYu helping his brother killing his own people (Han).

[Borjigin Ayurbarwada]

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I would rate YueFei over GuanYu. YueFei is helping his people fight for an invading race (Jin), and that is WAY greater than GuanYu helping his brother killing his own people (Han).

In the 3 kingdom period, Guan Yu kills Wei people, not his own people. Wei is just as much of an enemy to Shu as Jin is to Song, no difference.

[Moping4U]

Its Hans killing Hans, its a civil war. For Yue Fei, at his time, he was fighting a foreign enemy aka "barbarians", "tartars". Thats why Yue Fei represents patriotism and Guan Yu don't.