[kaixin]

I highly doubt it. Most Korean and Western historians tend to think Shilla did the bulk of the fighting against Koguryo and Paekchae and that the Tang only came to "mop up."

Actually, it was the reverse. Paekchae was entirely wiped out by the Tang with minimal Shilla aid. Koguryo was the stronger of the 3 Korean kingdoms and there was no way even a combined Paekchae/Shilla army could have fought off Koguryo at its height. It was due to continous Sui/Tang hammering at Koguryo that eventually led to their downfall. The fact that over 300,000 Korean slaves from Paekchae and Koguryo were shipped back to Tang China signified that the Tang forces played a more greater role and presence than Shilla in conquering Paekchae and Koguryo.

[Gubook Janggoon]

At this period, Goguryeo was probably weakest because of the political chaos created by the death of Yeon Gaesomun and the bickering between his sons, although the "hammering" by the Sui and Tang dynasties probably did have an outcome on Goguryeo's demise (Well obviously the Tang one did).

Goguryeo was strong, but Shilla had become mighty too. With the annexation of Geumgwan Gaya Shilla greatly boosted its iron production. It's attacks on the Goguryeoan Okjeo region also illustrate that it was a force to be reckoned with.

A combined Baekje/Shilla army did fight off Goguryeo forces around 551 CE when Goguryeo was pretty darn strong.

I think in the period of time that we are looking at, all three kingdoms are pretty much on equal footing. It was a stale mate, with perhaps a Goguryeo/Shilla advantage, and Shilla needed Tang to help break that stalemate. To tip the scales if you will.

Shilla did do a large portion of the fighting. There's a reason that to this day, the most famous battle during that war is the battle of Hwangsanbeol where General Gyebaek and General Kim Yushin had their final showdown.

I think the Tang and Shilla did pretty much equal amounts of battle. Both campains against Goguryeo and Baekje were two front wars. If one side even let up, the war may have gone woefully astray.

Quote

The fact that over 300,000 Korean slaves from Paekchae and Koguryo were shipped back to Tang China signified that the Tang forces played a more greater role and presence than Shilla in conquering Paekchae and Koguryo.

You could interpret that in that manner I guess, but that doesn't seem to make sense as a two front war requires that both sides put in a great amount of effort.

I think the slave thing also illustrates Tang's designs on Baekje and Goguryeo. By taking away the ruling class, you leave a vacuum to be filled by none other than the Tang.

[DomaHwang]

About Koguryo, Tang did much more fighting...so without Tang I doubt.
Personally I do not like 'united' expression that was adopted by Shilla people (and South Korean scholars from the province). Balhe continued the tradition of Koguryo.

[stupidumboy]

Without Tang and Sui, Koguryo could have not been invaded.
by the Tang and Sui's invasion campaign ,Koguryo's national power much became reduced.

Koguryo defended their territory from Sui and Tang's invasion but they also should have fought against the Shinra and Baekche troops in the south at the same time.


I personally look at Shinra's glory as the winning of betraying and scam.

During the King of Chinheung (the 24th King of Shinra) -he made alliance with Baekche and both of them combination attacked Koguryo's southern territory and then they successfully invaded the current Han river area(Seoul-Kyounggi area) but then Shinra betrayed Baekche and they took all of this invaded territory alone and captured and killed the Baekche troops who visited Shinra for peaceful negotiations.

Shinra also made scam promise with Koguryo when annoumous Koguryo troops driven to the southward - they cheated Koguryo with making scam promise to return the territory of Han river area to Koguryo-Koguryo belived that and withrawed their troops.
But Shinra did not abide by the promise.


Shinra could have widened their territory towards to the North while Koguryo fought against Sui and Tang and their national power was decreasing.

This post has been edited by stupidumboy: 12 August 2005 - 10:06 AM

[Gubook Janggoon]

I was looking through my sources again..namely

http://en.wikipedia....oguryeo-Sui_War
http://ecai.org/Area/AreaTeamExamples/Kore...yAnimation.html

The Sui invaded Goguryeo from around 598 ce to 614 ce

Shilla was already a powerful state by this time.

Before the Sui invasions even occur Shilla

1. Annexes Usanguk
2. Annexes Bon Gaya (Boosts Iron production.)
3. Annexes Dae Gaya (Thereby destroying the Gaya Entity)
4. Takes the Han River area from Goguryeo with Baekje.
5. Kicks Baekje out of their portion of their territory.
6. Makes an attack on and holds Goguryeo's Okjeo for a bit (Although Goguryeo eventually does take the area back.)

Baekje was no sissy either.

Right before Shilla and Tang's joint attack on Baekje, Baekje had attacked and taken Shilla's Nakdong river area.


I still think that the period was a time of stalemates. Shilla was just smart enough to bring in a big enough force to tip the scales.

[stupidumboy]

Gubook Janggoon, on Aug 13 2005, 01:38 AM, said:

4.  Takes the Han River area from Goguryeo with Baekje.
5.  Kicks Baekje out of their portion of their territory.
6.  Makes an attack on and holds Goguryeo's Okjeo for a bit (Although Goguryeo eventually does take the area back.)

Thats just pretty based on the Korean textbook,

Because it just quoted source from the Shinra centered view-'samguk sagi'

4,5,6 were all accomplished by scam and betray acts of Shinra (i.e Shinra just simply broke the agreements with baekche and Koguryo to widen their territory)- I cannot understand how they could be mentioned as glorious things of Shinra in the Korean textbook-

This post has been edited by stupidumboy: 12 August 2005 - 12:32 PM

[Gubook Janggoon]

stupidumboy, on Aug 12 2005, 09:29 AM, said:

Thats just pretty based on the Korean textbook,

Because it just quoted source from the Shinra centered view-'samguk sagi'

4,5,6 were all accomplished by scam and betray acts of Shinra (i.e Shinra just simply broke the agreements with baekche and Koguryo to widen their territory)- I cannot understand how they could be mentioned as glorious things of Shinra in the Korean textbook-

Dishonorable or not, it exemplifies that Shilla is a power to be reckoned with. If Goguryeo was as strong as people seem to label it as, it would have kicked Shilla out of the Han River region and would have been quicker about getting them out of the Okjeo region.

[stupidumboy]

No, I do not think their invasion of Han river area was possible without allied with Baekche ,

Shinra just lately participated the war between Koguryo and Baekche then did sneak invasion of 道薩城(modern chonan city-under the han river area-CN province) and 金峴城(modern jonui) in 550 while both of Koguryo and Baekche were in the war mode.

also Shinra's sudden attacking of the Han river area happend during the period of marriage alliance with Baekche,then finally Shinra could gained easier contact with mainland China.

[Gubook Janggoon]

stupidumboy, on Aug 12 2005, 04:26 PM, said:

No, I do not think their invasion of Han river area was possible without allied with Baekche ,

Shinra just lately participated the war between Koguryo and Baekche then did sneak invasion of  道薩城(modern chonan city-under the han river area-CN province)  and 金峴城(modern jonui) in 550 while both of Koguryo and Baekche were in the war mode.

also Shinra's sudden attacking of the Han river area happend during the period of marriage alliance with Baekche,then finally Shinra could gained easier contact with mainland China.

If the Han river attack doesn't exemplify Shilla's power, its attack on the Okjeo region definitely does. That was done with NO Baekje help.

[WangKon936]

stupidumboy, on Aug 12 2005, 09:58 AM, said:

Without Tang and Sui, Koguryo could have not been invaded.
by the Tang and Sui's invasion campaign ,Koguryo's national power much became reduced.

Koguryo defended their territory from Sui and Tang's invasion but they also should have fought against the Shinra and Baekche troops in the south at the same time.
I personally look at Shinra's glory as the winning of betraying and scam.

During the King of Chinheung (the 24th King of Shinra) -he made alliance with Baekche and both of them combination attacked Koguryo's southern territory and then they successfully invaded the current Han river area(Seoul-Kyounggi area) but then Shinra betrayed Baekche and they took all of this invaded territory alone and captured and killed the Baekche troops who visited Shinra for peaceful negotiations.

Shinra also made scam promise with Koguryo when annoumous Koguryo troops driven to the southward - they cheated Koguryo with making scam promise to return the territory of Han river area to Koguryo-Koguryo belived that and withrawed their troops.
But Shinra did not abide by the promise.
Shinra could have widened their territory towards to the North while Koguryo fought against Sui and Tang and their national power was decreasing.

Ah.... someone has been reading the Samguk Sagi, huh? Silla pongi or Paekje pongi?

[Hospitallier]

Baekji and Koguryo are both demising anyhow by the time, without Tang aid or not, Silla will eventually will unified the Korean Penusila. The additional Tang forces however did quicken the rate of the destruction of the two kingdoms and it is due to their involvement in the war that the Japanese who is helping Baekji notices the power of Tang cuture and the begin how Chinese culture comes to dominate almost everypart of East Asia.

[WangKon936]

Hospitallier, on Mar 30 2006, 06:00 PM, said:

Baekji and Koguryo are both demising anyhow by the time, without Tang aid or not, Silla will eventually will unified the Korean Penusila.

I disagree. In 650 AD Silla was in a bitter war with Paekje over possession of the Nakdong river valley (old Kaya territory). Silla was facing pressure from both Koguryo and Paekje and they were not too friendly with Yamato Japan either. Silla was surrounded. They needed friends. Under this pressure, Silla asked for help from Koguryo and Koguryo requested that Silla turn over the Han river valley as payment for their assistance.

In these desperate times, the Silla queen herself hand engraved a poem of peace to the Tang court and requested assistance. For Silla it wasn't an issue of reunifying the peninsula, it was an issue of survival.

Hospitallier, on Mar 30 2006, 06:00 PM, said:

The additional Tang forces however did quicken the rate of the destruction of the two kingdoms and it is due to their involvement in the war that the Japanese who is helping Baekji notices the power of Tang cuture and the begin how Chinese culture comes to dominate almost everypart of East Asia.

This I agree with. With the loss of Paekje and the defeat of their forces against Tang and Silla troops, Japan had to export continental culture from Tang directly. They had to develop a system of government that could centralize power and resources to defend against potential invasion from either Tang or Silla.

[WangKon936]

kaixin, on Aug 10 2005, 01:26 AM, said:

I highly doubt it. Most Korean and Western historians tend to think Shilla did the bulk of the fighting against Koguryo and Paekchae and that the Tang only came to "mop up."

FYI, the Samguk Sagi had a healthy respect for Tang military capabilities, particularly in the Koguryo Pongi, the final three Kwon.