65 replies to this topic

[Hendrik_2000]

Ancient Kogury oo o o ˙˙˙˙,Old Kogury oo o o ˙˙˙˙,and the Relationship of Japanese to Korean
Christopher I.Beckwith
Indiana University
Linguists working on the historical relationship between Japanese and Korean have mostly ignored the
medieval or ‘Old ’ Kogury o ˙ (OKog)onomastic material,some arguing that it does not,in fact,represent
the language of the Kogury o ˙ people in the medieval Kogury o ˙ kingdom,but a language of Paekche (Toh
1987,1989,1994)or an ancient substratum language of the Korean Peninsula (Kim 1981,1985),and the
reflexes of this lexical material in Japanese are loanwords introduced by immigrants during the Kofun
period (Unger 2001).C onsider the examples in (1).
(1)a.OKog mir (SS )‘three ’ ::OJpn mi ‘id.’
b.OKog ütsi (KS )‘five ’ ::OJpn itu ‘id.’
c.OKog ku (SS )‘child ’ ::OJpn k ú (Martin 1987:452:*kwo)>NJ ko ‘id.’
d.OKog k ì r ~key ‘tree,wood ’ ::OJpn k ì ~ki ‘id.’
Recent arguments in favor of a genetic ‘Japanese-Koguryoic family ’ ((Beckwith 1999),however persua-
sive,may be criticized because they do not deal with the often remarked problem that no connection has
been shown between the language of the ancient Kogury o ˙ kingdom,or ‘Archaic ’ Kogury o ˙ (AKog),and
the language of the later OKog toponyms from north of the Yalu on the one hand,and the OKog
toponyms from the central Korean Peninsula on the other.However,if these objections are answered the
argument that Kogury o ˙ is related genetically to Japanese (as thought by most scholars who have worked
on the primary data,regardless of their ideas about further relationships)would be strengthened.In view
of the recent disproof of the most important putative Kogury o ˙-Korean etymologies (Beckwith 2002),the
close relationship between the Japanese and Kogury o ˙ languages could potentially disprove the Japanese-
Korean genetic theory,or at least force a major reformulation.
This paper examines all known linguistic data on AKog from ancient Chinese literary accounts (primarily
the San kuo chih ),as well as the King Kwanggaet ’o memorial inscription of 414.Since determining
linguistically whether AKog and OKog are related is heavily dependent on the reconstruction of the
phonology of the Chinese syllables used to transcribe these languages,characteristics of the archaic
Northeastern Chinese in use in the Korean area when the Kogury o ˙ names were recorded are taken into
consideration in this paper.Analysis of both sets of Kogury o ˙ material reveals a clear,regular relationship
between AKog and the OKog language attested half a millenium later,as in the examples in (2).
(2)a.AKog g apma (SKC )‘great mountain ’ ~~OKog §ap ‘high mountain ’ ::OJpn yama ‘mountain ’
b.AKog kuru (SKC )‘walled city,fort ’ ~~OKog ku ë r ‘id.’ ::OJpn k ì ‘id.’
c.AKog kweyru (HHS )‘yellow ’ ~~OKog ku ë r ‘id.’ ::OJpn ki ,ku -~k ú -‘id.‘
Next,the problem of the OKog dialects,the existence of which was first suggested by Lee (1964,1983),
and their relationship with AKog,is discussed.Some of the differences evident in the OKog material —
such as the examples in (3),which show that the dialect in question and Old Japanese are closer to each
other in some respects than to the dominant OKog dialect —suggest that one dialect (perhaps introduced
into Korea in Antiquity during one of the migrations of peoples related to the Kogury o ˙,including the Ye
or Ye-Maek)may be even more closely related to Japanese.
(3)a.OKog k ì r ‘tree,wood ’ ~~OKog (dial.)key ‘id.’ ((SS ):OJpn k ì ~ki ‘id.’
b.OKog ku ë rtsi ‘mouth ’ ~~OKog (dial.)k ú tsi (SS)<*kutui ‘id.’ ::OJpn kuti <*kutui ‘id.’

[Hendrik_2000]

http://hanbooks.com/paekofkororo.html

3.
THE MASSIVE INFLOW OF PAEKCHE PEOPLE
IN THE FIFTH CENTURY:
If Yamato Wa Was Established without Any Relation to Paekche,
Then There is No Way to Explain such a Massive Movement
–A Cultural Anthropological Approach
Beardsley (1955), an anthropologist, states that: “Some five centuries after
Yayoi culture began . . . Japan was the target of fresh cultural influence which
added earth-mounded tombs, va ried uses of iron, eve n t u a l ly the plow, and
Japan ’s second domestic animal, the horse, as significant elements of
Japanese culture. Migration for conquest by small, united bands of people
must be taken into account as a feature of this period just before the dawn of
h i s t o ry . . . for small groups of pastoral nomad or steppe origin may have
been prominent among the intruders into Japan. Others, perhaps, we re
Chinese or Korean adventurers.”
R e i s chauer and Fairbank (1958: 464) note that “[t]he Song-shu (Song
H i s t o ry), the official account of the Liu Song dynasty (420-479) of south
China, compiled shortly after its fall, describes several embassies that came to
the Song court from what was obviously the emerging Yamato state centered
in the Kinki Region.” Reischauer and Fairbank (1958: 468) further suggest
t h at “[p]ossibly the people of Kaya we re culturally close to the ru l i n g
groups in Japan, who may themselves have migrated to Japan from Korea not
long before.” However, the unfolding intimate relationships between the
rulers of Yamato Wa and those of Paekche , as narrated in Nihongi
over the period A.D. 397-663, strongly point to Paekche rather than Kaya as
the origin of the Yamato imperial clan.
According to Tsuda (1963), “the civilization of China which was brought
in by way of the Korean peninsula was primarily absorbed by the Court and
those influential classes that surrounded it,” and this culture was completely
accepted by the Imperial Family. Tsuda believes that “the Imperial Family
constituted itself the leader of the new civ i l i z ation” and, as a consequence,
m a ny new fami li es of To m o n o m i yat s u ko t hat made thei r livi ng and
maintained their position by taking ch a rge of some aspect of the new
c iv i l i z ation for the benefit of the Imperial Family sprang up at the Court .
MODEL BUILDING FOR PROTOHISTORIC JAPAN 53

This tendency “encouraged the people to stay as close as possible to the
Imperial Family in hopes of being benefited by the blessings of civilization.”
Nihongi offers an abundance of records of the intimate relationships that
were maintained between the rulers of Paekche and those of Yamato Wa after
founding of the imperial clan until the fall of Pa e k ch e. Kojiki also
o ffe rs some accounts. This section presents the re c o rds from Kojiki and
Nihongi which portray these intimate relationships.
N i h o n gi (NI: 257) describes the construction of a re s e rvoir by Ko re a n
people in A.D. 398: “Men of Koguryeo, men of Paekche, men of Imna ,
and men of Silla all together attended the Court . . . . [T]hese various men of
Han . . . [were made to] dig a pond. Therefore the pond . . . was called the
pond of the men of Han [Ko rea] .”
< 1 >
Kojiki (KP: 284) re c o rds that
“there came immigrants from Siragi [Silla]” who made a pond under the
command of Takesi-Uti-no-Sukune. Then Kojiki records that the pond was
called “Kudara-no-Ike ”; Kudara represents Paekche.
<2>
Nihongi (NI: 261-263) notes: that “[in A.D. 403] the King of Paekche sent
. . . a seamstress named Maketsu [Chin-mo-chin]. She was the first ancestress
of the present seamstresses of Kume . . . The King of Paekche
sent A-chik-ki with two quiet horses [in A.D. 404] . . . . A-chik-ki was
able to read classics, and so the Heir Apparent . . . made him his teacher.
Hereupon the Emperor inquired of A-chik-ki, saying: ‘Are there other learned
men superior to thee?’ He answered and said: ‘There is Wang-in [Wani],
who is superior.’ Then Areda wake, ancestor of the Kimi of Kodzuke, and
Kamu nagi wake were sent to Paekche to summon Wang-in. This A-chik-ki
was the first ancestor of the A-chik-ki (or Atogi) no Fumi-bito (Scribes).
Wang-in arrived, and straightway the Heir Apparent . . . took him as teacher
and learnt va rious books from him. There was none which he did not
t h o ro u g h ly unders t a n d. Th e re fo re the man called Wang-in was the first
ancestor of the Fumi no Obito (chiefs of writing).”
<3>
Nihongi records
the arrival of Wang-in in the 16th year of Aston (NI: xi) notes that the
year corresponds to A.D. 405.
1
One can find similar records in Kojiki (KP: 284-285): “. . . the King of the
land of Kudara [Pa e k che], King Seuko [Keun Ch' ogo: A.D. 349-375],
presented one stallion and one mare, which he sent accompanied by Ati-Kisi
. This Ati-Kisi was the ancestor of the Pumi-Bito of Atiki .
Also he presented a sword and a large mirror . . . . [H]e [the king of Paekche]
p resented a man named Wani-Kisi ( Wang-in). The Confucian
ARCHEOLOGICAL APPROACH 54
1
Aston (NI: xii) adds that Wang-in had also been employed to keep the accounts of
the Treasury.

[Manchuconqueror]

Hendrik, I appreciate your work, but I think its a bit off topic,don't you think?

[Hendrik_2000]

As a child grew up in SEA my father is very knowledable about Chinese mythos and He used to tell us that long time ago There is this poweful King who longed for longevity and He send his minister to look for elixir of life

Well knowing it is impossible and risking his head if he failed, the minister asked for 3000 virgin and 3000 young lad to accompanied him then he sailed for east sea never to come back and his descendant supposed to be the Japanese

latter I found out the king is Qinshihuang and there is such mythos in Chinese folklore and the minister name is Fu and there is such city called Fukuoka(the hill where Fu lived) in Japan And Japan still celebrate the most sacred ceremony every 50 years to commemorate the beginning of Yamato race and the date supposed to coincide with the arrival of minister Fu

But mythos aside there is intriquing supposition that Japan-China relation is far older than Wei time here is the latest thinking

EFFECT OF PREHISTORIC CULTURES OF THE LOWER YANGTZE RIVER ON ANCIENT JAPAN
AN, Zhimin

http://www.carleton....rs/zhimin84.htm

Excerpt

At the 31st International Symposium of Social Science for Asia and North Africa (Seminar A-2), held in September 5, 1983 at Kyoto, Japan, I presented the topic On the Hemudu Culture. Besides introducing the contents and discovery of the Hemudu culture, I also pointed out in the conclusion: "The elements of the Neolithic culture discovered in Hemudu and the lower Yangtze River that followed could have influences on ancient Japan. The origins of jue (a jade ring with a small segment cut off), lacquerware, rice seedlings in the (Japanese) Shengwen Period and "balustrade style" construction in the (Japanese) Misheng Period are traceable to the lower Yangtze River. Wooden oars and clay boat models were discovered in Hemudu sites and at the same time, similar sites were excavated in the Zhoushan Islands off the coast of Zhejiang Province. This at least proved that seafaring existed at that time. From existing documents, voyages between China and Japan existed in the Han-Wei period (ca. 200 AD), but it is unclear if voyages occurred before it. However, during the Han-Wei period, "balustrade style" construction with long roof ridge and short eave had already disappeared on the lower Yangtze River, so international amenities between the two countries began earlier. Jue, lacquer and rice seedling in the Japanese Shengwen Period apparently had close ties with lower Yangtze River Neolithic culture, making it worthwhile to pursue research on Chinese and Japanese cultural ties as well as the time and route of voyages between the two countries. In any case, we believe Chinese and Japanese ties began much earlier than the Han-Wei period suggested previously." Several Japanese newpapers quoted my talk and reported that Sino-Japanese communication may have begun 5000 years ago. Japanese archaeologists were also interested in the suggestion that rice cultivation was directly imported into Japan by sea-route(1).

[Yun]

Actually, Manchuconqueror - the question of where the Japanese came from is a very interesting one that shows a number of nationalistic agendas at work. The Koreans believe that the Japanese came from the Korean state of Paekche (Baekje), while the Chinese like to tell the tale of Xu Fu being sent to find the elixir of immortality by Qin Shihuang and supposedly settling down in Japan with his 6,000 young men and women. As for the Japanese, everyone knows what they used to believe about their origins - that they are descended from gods.

There was a good discussion about this on AE, but unfortunately it's gone now.

[yehzhaofeng]

Don't we still call South Korea, Go-Li? My parents refer to South Korea as Go-Li and North Korea Chosin.

I believe they came from Korea and China.

[Kulong]

Andrew Yip, on Aug 15 2004, 03:33 PM, said:

Don't we still call South Korea, Go-Li? My parents refer to South Korea as Go-Li and North Korea Chosin.

I believe they came from Korea and China.

In Taiwan, North and South Koreas are called simply 北韓 and 南韓. In mainland China, they are called 朝鮮 and 韓國. I've never heard of anyone refering to the modern Korean nations as 高麗. However, ginseng from Korea is still refered to as 高麗人槮

[Manchuconqueror]

Question: what does go li stand for?

[Kulong]

Manchuconqueror, on Aug 15 2004, 11:15 PM, said:

Question: what does go li stand for?

It's Gaoli 高麗, an older name for Korea.

[General_Zhaoyun]

Well.. Gaoli and Korea are two similar name..

[Yun]

They are both transliterations of Koryo 高丽, the state founded by Wang Kon (in Chinese, Wang Jian 王建) in 936 AD after he reunified the Later Three Kingdoms (892-936).

The first Three Kingdoms period in Korea (4th century AD - 668 AD):
Ended with Silla conquering Paekche and Koguryo in alliance with the Tang dynasty. The Tang tried to take the Korean peninsula for itself, but was then driven out by Silla.

The Later Three Kingdoms period in Korea (892-936):
Silla declined, and two rebel leaders set up the new states of Later Paekche and Later Koguryo, claiming to be the legitimate successors of the last rulers of Paekche and Koguryo. Wang Kon became the ruler of Later Koguryo in 918 after the first ruler was overthrown and killed, and he renamed the state as Koryo. In 935 the last Silla ruler surrendered to Wang Kon, and in 936 Koryo conquered Later Paekche.

The Koryo Wang dynasty reigned until 1392, when Yi Song-gye (Li Chenggui 李成桂 in Chinese) dethroned the last Koryo ruler and founded the Choson 朝鲜 dynasty.

[heyniceboard]

Ancient Japanese (倭人) claimed to be descendents of China's Wu Kingdom (吴国). The first Wu Kingdom was united by Taibo 太伯 during the Spring and Autumn Period. Originally considered as part of the Eastern Barbarians, the people of the Wu Kingdom became Sinicized during the Warring States Period. The Wu Kingdom was coastal and had very sophisticated shipbuilding technologies. Ambassadoral visits to Japan by the later Northern Chinese dynasties Wei and Jin (Encounters of the Eastern Barbarians, Wei Chronicles) record that the Japanese people claim to be descendents of Taibo of Wu, refugees after the fall of Wu.

Historical documentations:

魏略：「倭人自謂太伯之後。」

晉書：「自謂太伯之後，又言上古使詣中國，皆自稱大夫。」　列傳第六十七四夷

資治通鑑：「今日本又云呉太伯之後，蓋呉亡，其支庶入海為倭。」


There is growing evidence to suggest that many Japanese (Yayoi) and South Koreans came from the Yangtze River Delta (today's Shanghai region, 江南). Wet rice farming was also brought to these areas from the Yangtze Delta. Two main paths of migration exist: 1. via sea to Korea's Cheju Island and the peninsula, to Japan's Kyushu Island, to Ryukyu Islands (Okinawa); and 2. northward through Shandong and into the Korean peninsula. The closest two points between China and the main Japanese islands is from Shanghai to Kyushu (200 miles), there is also a natural sea current in that direction.

==
The Japan Times, March 19, 1999

Yayoi linked to Yangtze area
DNA tests reveal similarities to early wet-rice farmers

Some of the first wet-rice farmers in Japan might have migrated from the lower basin of China's Yangtze River more than 2,000 years ago, Japanese and Chinese researchers said Thursday.

This was suggested by DNA tests conducted by the researchers that showed genetic similarities between human remains from the Yayoi Period found in southwestern Japan and the early Han Dynasty found in China's central Jiangsu Province, Satoshi Yamaguchi told reporters.

People who introduced irrigation techniques to the Japanese archipelago in the Yayoi Period (250 B.C.-300) were believed to have come to Japan either from the Korean Peninsula across the Tsushima Strait, or from northern China across the Yellow Sea.

The latest findings, however, bolster another theory suggesting the origin of the Yayoi people was an area south of the Yangtze, which is believed to be the birthplace of irrigated rice cultivation.

Yamaguchi, a researcher at Japan's National Science Museum, said the researchers compared Yayoi remains found in Yamaguchi and Fukuoka prefectures with those from early Han (202 B.C.- in Jiangsu in a three-year project begun in 1996.

The researchers found many similarities between the skulls and limbs of Yayoi people and the Jiangsu remains.

Two Jiangsu skulls showed spots where the front teeth had been pulled, a practice common in Japan in the Yayoi and preceding Jomon Period.
But the most persuasive findings resulted from tests revealing that genetic samples from three of 36 Jiangsu skeletons also matched part of the DNA base arrangements of samples from the Yayoi remains, the scientists said.

[Gubook Janggoon]

From what I Know, Genetic tests show that Japanese are a little bit o everything. They're like a quarter Korean, a quarter Chinese, and everything else is divided up between Ainu, Malay, and other stocks.

[General_Zhaoyun]

Research has shown that Japanese language is in the same group as Korean (Altaic-Turkic-Tungusic Branch). The Japanese looks are slightly different from Korean. They look more like northern chinese..hehee

[heyniceboard]

General_Zhaoyun, on Aug 19 2004, 05:14 AM, said:

Research has shown that Japanese language is in the same group as Korean (Altaic-Turkic-Tungusic Branch).

You mean Korean research. I don't think there is very hard evidence to suggest that Japanese and Korean are indeed related, and belong to Altaic. Certainly the world's linguists have not made that statement. Some of the grammar similarities are probably loaned and very superficial.