154 replies to this topic

[Yun]

In response to Gweilo's request, here's a thread for discussing the Hakka - arguably the most diasporic-minded Chinese of all, more so than even the Hokkien (Fujian) people.

There've been different theories put forward as to when the Hakka first came to the south - the Qin, the Eastern Jin, and the late Tang have all been identified as times of upheaval in the north that would have caused large southward migrations. The Hakka language, perhaps to a greater extent than Cantonese and Hokkien, preserves many elements of Ancient and Middle Chinese pronunciation that have been lost in north China (due to influences from the languages of northern ethnicities like the Mongols and Manchus). In fact, I have been told jokingly that Hakka was the "national language" of the Eastern Jin - which is not strictly true because the Luoyang dialect of the Jin elite is not totally equivalent to Hakka.

Another strange theory (which I only heard of recently) is that the Hakka are descended from Xiongnu! There is a description of this theory on the following website: http://www.asiawind....y.htm#migration

I encourage you guys to read the rest of the website as well... Lee Siu-leung may not be an academic (although he has a PhD), and his views on some topics (such as Gavin Menzies' Zheng He theory) strike me as rather naive, but the amount of work he has done on Hakka history is truly praiseworthy.

[Gweilo]

So I may be married to a woman with Xiongnu blood? :huh: Very cool! :P

Like thousands of others, my wife's mother and father escaped the Communist takeover of the mainland and fled into Hong Kong in the early 1950s. They established a life in HK and from speaking with my wife I get the impression they lost ties with many of their relatives who stayed behind.

My mother-in-law passed away last year, and she was extremely elderly when I first met her. She no longer wore the traditional Hakka bamboo hats, but my wife tells me at one time she did wear those. I think that living in HK for 50 years pulled her away from some of the traditional Hakka ways, which is understandable. My MIL still spoke the Hakka dialect, though, and this was how my wife learned it.

There are still some villages in the HK SAR that are comprised almost entirely of Hakka, and they still follow the traditional customs. They often show them (especially the women wearing the bamboo hats) in travel guides, like Fodor's and Lonely Planet.

[yehzhaofeng]

Yes.

The wear bamboo hats with black veils to protect them from the sun. I've seen many pictures, and I still see people wearing them at my Ancestral Hometown.

Anyone heard of Qitang?Ancestral Temples?

[General_Zhaoyun]

Great Link, Yun, especially about the history of Hakka people. I'm learning alot.

Yes, the Hakka (客家人) people indeed originated from the north China but migrated southwards to south China because of war and famine. Currently, they resided in the eastern part of Guangdong province (some in HongKong) as well as in Taiwan (in Hsinchu, Zhanghua etc.) . There are also Hakka people in Singapore and Malaysia as well as north and south America.

[wuTao]

I found this article on the internet arguing that the Hakka, and pretty much the people of South China, aren't very much related to the people from the North:
http://www.i1.net/~a...kka/toihak0.htm .

What do you guys think of this?

[Yun]

The page that WuTao gave looks at the question from the perspective of genetics research. Another page on the website uses a different perspective - a review of existing scholarship on the origin of the Hakka: http://www.i1.net/~a...ka/toihakka.htm

My gut feeling is that this guy has an agenda that many other Taiwanese seem to share these days - asserting a separate ethnic identity from China, especially from North China. That agenda apparently includes arguing that the Taiwanese Hakka are not really "Chinese" because they were never truly assimilated into a Chinese state.

Another example of such attempts is a Taiwanese theory that the Min Nan (Fujian) people of Taiwan are actually descended from the "Hundred Yue" 百越 of the Fujian area, and not from the Han. In a National Geographic article about the Han dynasty several months ago, the whole Fujian-Zhejiang area was even shown as lying outside Eastern Han control, and still being ruled by the Bai Yue. Such an idea is so strange that I immediately suspected that some Taiwanese scholars were behind it.

[wuTao]

The page that WuTao gave looks at the question from the perspective of genetics research. Another page on the website uses a different perspective - a review of existing scholarship on the origin of the Hakka: http://www.i1.net/~a...ka/toihakka.htm

My gut feeling is that this guy has an agenda that many other Taiwanese seem to share these days - asserting a separate ethnic identity from China, especially from North China. That agenda apparently includes arguing that the Taiwanese Hakka are not really "Chinese" because they were never truly assimilated into a Chinese state.

Another example of such attempts is a Taiwanese theory that the Min Nan (Fujian) people of Taiwan are actually descended from the "Hundred Yue" 百越 of the Fujian area, and not from the Han. In a National Geographic article about the Han dynasty several months ago, the whole Fujian-Zhejiang area was even shown as lying outside Eastern Han control, and still being ruled by the Bai Yue. Such an idea is so strange that I immediately suspected that some Taiwanese scholars were behind it.

That's was my reaction Yun: this research is probably being used to push forward a separtist movement in Taiwan and legitimatising Taiwan's claims to independence.

At the same time, much of the research cited was came from researchers who were not Chinese (and therefore probably didn't have any political aims), or came from the mainland, so I do believe that it is accurate in portaying those from the south as not being descended from the Han (which in no way means that they are not Chinese, though).

[thirdgumi]

Hakkas originally came from the North and fled to the South mainly after the fall of the Tang dynasty.

I think it was earlier than that, it was during Jin dynasty. That was why hakkan dialect was considered the oldest Chinese dialet.

[General_Zhaoyun]

The Hakka originated from the north.. that's why they look more northern

[Snafu]

What do you mean exactly by northern looking? I'm not Chinese myself so I can't really spot all the subtle traits that separate the different groups. What are the physical differences between northerners and southerners?

[Yun]

Northern Chinese tend to be taller, fairer, have single eyelids, and have sharper features with thinner lips, smaller mouths and smaller eyes. Southern Chinese are generally the opposite - shorter, darker, double eyelids, flatter features with full lips, larger mouths and larger eyes like the Vietnamese or Thais.

[Snafu]

Ah, very interesting. Thanks for adding to my fund of knowledge! :)

[General_Zhaoyun]

If you travel to China, you will notice this difference between north chinese and south chinese.. The north chinese have more 'square'' face, single eye-lid.. looking more like Mongolians. The southern chinese are shorter, darker and larger eyes (double eyelid)..and their facial structure is different from north Chinese