[Ghost_of_Han]

The Dragon in China has always played a big role, it is worshiped. He his prayed to, to evoke the rain, he his the symbol for ying and yang. He is always associated with the emperor which make this piece even more appropriate.

The Dragon Robe originally was a long sleeve robe with a round neck fastening over the right. A girdled with narrow hoops. And a jeweled posted of their rank.

The Dragon Robe first appeared in the Tang Dynasty, what they wore before hand I have no clue. Their use was quickly suspended for a quick period of disunion then brought back up again in the Song. But the Yuan was the first dynasty to really use the Dragon robe. Then the Ming came along, and they didn't want to be like the Yuan, so they didn't officially adopt the use of the dragon robe, they still used it for informal occasions, and eventually just used it all the same.

Ming's Color Rankings for Officials
1. Yellow, this was the color only worn by the Emperor.
2. Red, the color color of High Officials and imperial family. This is also Ming's Dynastic color.
3. Dark Blue was low rank officials
4. White is unlucky, if I remember properly for Water Margin, they wore white a funerals.
5. Black was the imperial bodyguards and principle attendants.

Their was a style on the Dragon Robes, called Dragon Roundels, this was lost (not used) during the Yuan but it was the Ming who brought it back. (I will have picture of the roundels, once i get a scanner or digital camera, for now its basically a circle with a dragon built in). The Dragon roundels were used for the emperor and the imperial family, to be more exact actually only his male kin, and their male kin. The usually were 12 roundels and their were many variations of these, but usually there were always 12. later on I'll write about the Twelve symbols of Imperial Authority.

Eventually everyone wanted to have a dragon robe, and if everyone made dragon robes, they would lose their value so, their were laws passed to prevent officials from making or buying dragon robes. But in about the 1600s, the law was lax and bendable and it was easy to get them once again.

Even though they were being produced, very few Ming Dragon Robes at left today. This is because a Dragon Robe was an honor to have and many times, the owner would be buried with it. Also allot of the Ming Dragon Robes were sent to Tibet to be tayoled (recut), or as gifts (I don't know why they would give them gifts though). Went they are tailored in Tibet they are said to be made into the "chuba" style. I don't know why the dragon robe were being seen their in the first place and really don't know what the "chuba" style is either.

The next to reign would be the would be the Manchus(Technically the Qing). When they came into power they had already heard of the dragon robes, because had received them as either gifts or bribes. And like the Ming's feeling towards the Yuan, the Manchus did not want to be like the Ming (this seems quite promant through out the Dynastic cycle. But seemingly enough, they too used the Dragon Robe. Of course they altered it so it couldn't be directly linked to the Ming.

The Manchus made up a small percent of the population, 2% to be exact, so immediately when they came to power they put in measures (laws) to control of the empire. One of those laws was the mandating of what the officials wore.

Manchu's were a rebel hunting people, even know for raising reindeer. The original Dragon robe as I told you was large, and not meant for anything physical, this didn't fit the Manchus. So the Manchus redesigned a slimmer robe that suited there lifestyle.

Manchus colors are a little confusing in this book. They say the colors of the Ming still hold the symbolic propties, from Ming (which doesn't make sense). Their dynastic color was dark blue. And red (Ming's color) was avoid, and only really worn when the Emperor had to have a sacrifice at the Alter of the Sun. But for the Han Chinese Red was also a represntive for Ming, and so they started to wear red, considering a luck color. And started wearing red on their wedding day (that's where we get red wedding dresses from now in China).

Manchus also had a dividing for clothing, there were Official, and Non Official. Under Official there were still three more sections, Official formal, Official Semi-formal, both were used for Court. Official informal was for traveling, entertainment events, and important domestic events. Unofficial formal was for visiting family. Also the clothing changed with the seasons.

Main soucre for this "Chinese Dragon Robes" Valery M. Garrett, Oxford university Press

[General_Zhaoyun]

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The Dragon Robe first appeared in the Tang Dynasty, what they wore before hand I have no clue. Their use was quickly suspended for a quick period of disunion then brought back up again in the Song. But the Yuan was the first dynasty to really use the Dragon robe. Then the Ming came along, and they didn't want to be like the Yuan, so they didn't officially adopt the use of the dragon robe, they still used it for informal occasions, and eventually just used it all the same.

I thought Dragon Robe had already appeared during Han dynasty and not till Tang dynasty.

[Ghost_of_Han]

I would agree but here the direct quote on page 1.

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Dragons first appeared on robes in the Tang dynasty (AD 618-906) and then again in the Song (960-1279).

GZ I wouldn't be surprised if your right. There wouldn't happen to be anything on it in the shiji is there?

[Yun]

Before the Tang, the imperial robes were usually in the colour of that particular dynasty according to the Five Phases system. In the Tang dynasty, the colour was yellow, but the Five Phases system also fell out of use during the Tang. So from then on, yellow was standardised as the imperial colour, not to be used in clothing by anyone else (on pain of death), and dragons were added to it.

[General_Zhaoyun]

It seems that during the Han dynasty, the dragon robe's color is black..and during Tang and Ming dynasty, it's yellow.

[Yun]

The Song dragon robe was also various shades of yellow, but the emperor would wear a red robe on less formal occasions and was sometimes depicted that way in art. As for the Qing, everyone knows the yellow "ma gua" with many dragons that the emperors wore. But I'm not so sure about the Han - according to the Five Phases, the Western Han colour should be yellow, and the Eastern Han colour should be red.

[Tyler]

The Dragon Robe was also existant in the Three Kingdoms Era if I remember correctly.

[Ghost_of_Han]

hummm, I'm gonna need a quote or source from that, I do remeber reading in Three Kingdoms that the Emperor had bed called the dragon couch. But I don't think the dragon robe was around back then. The most likey time that you would see the Dragon Robe is when Dong Chen would be receiving the secerct message in the girt from the emperor. Chapter 20. I looked it up, and heres the quote
Chapter 20, paragraph 76

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Then pointing to his own robe, the Emperor continued, "You must wear this robe of mine, girded with my own girdle, and it will be as though you are always near your Emperor."

The robe is not refered to as a dragon robe even though it belonged to the emperor. This doesn't mean that it wasn't a dragon robe, but leads me to believe that Yun, and my quote are correct that Tang was the begining of the Dragon Robes.

[Tyler]

Red robes simbleised military offecers while blue robs simbleised advisiors if I bleeave it may have not been the dragon robe but they did organize ranks by color.

[Ghost_of_Han]

Yun Quote

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But I'm not so sure about the Han - according to the Five Phases, the Western Han colour should be yellow, and the Eastern Han colour should be red.

General ZhaoYun

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It seems that during the Han dynasty, the dragon robe's color is black..and during Tang and Ming dynasty, it's yellow.

Well according to the Five Phases the former Han was originally Water (also that was Qin's symbol as well), and this is compared with the color black. So maybe the picture you saw was correct, but I don't think it was considered a dragon robe, any links or pictures about Han clothing would be wonderful. Later in 104 the Earth became the Phase of the Han. And even Wang Mang decided to keep Earth as his Dynastic color for the Xin Dynasty. After Wang Mang reign ended, the Han changed their color to Fire, this change was done by Han Guangwudi, but in the Former Han the leaders of Han had already been talking about that change for Earth to Fire.

For more information on the Five Phases go Here, and look at Yun's posting.

[Yun]

"Later in 104 the Earth became the Phase of the Han."

Something must be wrong with this sentence - 104 AD was way into the Eastern Han, when the Phase was fire and the colour was red.

[Ghost_of_Han]

Well Yun I thought you might question my passage, But you questioned it in the wrong spot. When I said "Later in 104 the Earth became the Phase of the Han", I meant BC. I shouldn't have used the word Later at the beginning of that sentence, cause it kinda leans toward Later Han.

But the area you could have questioned me at was here:

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Well according to the Five Phases the former Han was originally Water... and this is compared with the color black

There is just a little speculation about the truth of this really being this being the Dynastic color. Because they never really state that they re-adopted Water as the Dynastic symbol. But the evidence I have for the statement I made was this, Liu Bang in 205, even before he was emperor he was really established as emperor he order a worship of the 5th color Black. Later when Liu Bang officially became emperor, although not stated there was always special treatment to the element of Water.

And it is clear that the Han Court, had accepted Water. Once the Han court has record that shortly after Han Wudi comes to the throne he makes a statement suggesting that the Dynastic color should be changed.

Later in Han Wudi's reign (166 BC)a man named Gong-sun Chen, was said to also have suggested the changing of the Dynastic color. He wanted to change it to Earth. But it wasn't till the next year that he got support when there was an appearance of a Gold Dragon. Earth=yellow or gold. So then his proposal was recognized, and Han Wudi changed his protocol for him, and set him up as Academician (Wade Giles : po-shih, Pinyin: Bo-shi?). But still the people of the court didn't allow it to happen. Until about forty years later, Michael Loewe (Han Dynasty expert) strongly thinks the Dynastic change was due to help of Sima Qian.

[Yun]

Good research there GoH! You're improving fast :) Which Michael Loewe book did you refer to?

[Ghost_of_Han]

Divination, mythology and monarchy in Han China. That was one of the only ones I could find, alot of them were check out.

[Jiang Qin]

Together with the colour of the robes, the symbol on the robe also represents the rank or status of the court officials. I remember watching National Geographic or Discovery last time, they got a full 1 hour documentary based on the robes.

If I'm correct, it was more important during the Qing dynasty period. There were the Dragon symbol for the emperor, then phoenix, sparrow, and much more. Each rank of office has a special symbol on their robes. I not sure the Qing system got how many level of rankings for their court officials but each got their unique bird symbol, different from the others.

If anyone got more information on these please post the links, Im searching for it for a long time but it's hard to find a quality site for informations.