[vng78]

I have recently become interested in the Eight Array Formation (the battle formation that Zhuge Liang used). I have done some research (from various sources - including this forum) but upon seeing the deployment diagram, I have been thinking how does it really work. I'd imagine this "ultimate formation" was supposed to surround the enemy without them even knowing. I have some ideas that I'd like to discuss but they have their difficulties (not impossible) to carry out.

I then traced that Kong Ming derived this formation from the Eight Array Maze.
So I thought if I were to study the Maze, then I might be able to figure out how/why he derived his formation from the Maze.

From SGYY, the maze that bottled up Lu Xun was described as having doors and door sills which I think does not make sense. I managed to understand why the combination is inexhaustible (traced it back to Yi Jing trigrams) but I'm still trying to figure out the implementation aspect of such a Maze. I don't think the boulders moved by itself as describe in SGYY.

Geez, sorry for the long post... I hope I'm not taking this Eight Array thing too seriously. Anyone with info on the maze or formation will be highly appreciated!

THANKS!

[General_Zhaoyun]

Here is a good chinese article on Bagua (8 Array) formation 八卦阵

http://www.hispeed.c...p?PostID=824585

Anyone care to translate it into english?

.. it says that 8 array formation wasn't invented by Zhugeliang. It already appeared before his time. Sun Tzu also had 8 array formation.

[vng78]

Thanks General Zhaoyun for moving the thread to the right place.

Yeah I'm aware that it wasn't invented by Zhuge Liang but I believe he had incorporated flexibility or something into it. From my research, the original Eight Array Formation itself is a very defensive formation without the intent to encircle / trap the enemy.

From my understanding, the formation starts off as a normal Eight Array Formation and once the enemy engages, it will change/move/transform and ends up surrounded the enemy. This is also consistent with the Eight Array Maze which is said to be capable of inexhaustible permutations. So is Yi Jing and he uses the representations of Yi Jing in his formation.

That's why I became so interested to find out more about this. And oh, if someone could translate the page that ZhaoYun posted, it will be much appreciated. What happened to Yun?

Please people, let me know your opinion!!!!

Thanks.

[Yun]

The original modified version of the old Eight Array formation devised by Zhuge Liang was apparently a defensive wagon laager (i.e. circle of horse wagons) of a complex multi-layered format, manned by men with heavy multi-bolt crossbows. It was designed to counter the Wei superiority in cavalry and enhance the survivability of Shu-Han infantry in the field.

The evidence for this is the Jin Shu record of the Western Jin general Ma Long's use of the Eight Array formation against rebel Xianbei cavalry in the 270s. His men used heavy crossbows, covered wagons (pianxiang che), and an outer ring of anti-cavalry obstacles (lujiao, literally 'deer's antlers') to repel the cavalry "according to the Eight Array diagram". This idea was much later adopted by General Qi Jiguang of the Ming, who used pianxiang che equipped with cannon and firearms to counter the cavalry of the Mongols.

Unfortunately, the Eight Array formation later became mysticised by scholars who had no understanding of warfare, and all kinds of Daoist ideas were brought in. The different parts of the formation now looked like constellations with no practical value on the battlefield, and it was believed that they would influence the battle through supernatural factors like 'qi'. A classic example of fanciful reconstructions of the Eight Array formation is that by Lan Zhang 藍章 of the Ming dynasty:

http://www.agent-m.net/Book/O-1-049-1.htm#...#36299;〉

I'd love to translate all this, but I'm afraid I simply don't have the time. Anyone else able to help?

[CARDINAL009]

General Zy and Yun,

Good reading material.

Thanks!

[squallxx]

Eight Array Maze & Formation

perviously i has an article on this after studying for many mths i finally know how this works...its can be true to bottle up to 100.000 people in the maze depending on the location..

u can try to look of websites under sight seeing on yangtze..

this is the most famous maze..beside this zhuge liang also setup 1 at his home town, another 1 at xichun to prevent wu from invading, another 1 was in chengdu..

only 1 was put to good use...

this maze is base on eight digrams (ba qua) repeling each other eg..for normal maze to enter life gate will bring u out but this is the death gate that u lead u out..animlas on the maze meant the same way...what i reacall is there is bird, snake, tiger

the heap of stones are arrange in the ways that of a moving ba qua..if u notice that u turn the inner heaps of stones n the outer layer it forms a cycle that is never ending...ttl there are 64 heaps of stones..

http://www.yangtze.c...ry/eightfm.html

this is the website that i was talking about.but tt bad it had been taken away...

any bro got the pic of this maze pls post it

i wish to see it again...too bad i did not keep it the other time..

[Yang Zongbao]

Hm. I think this might count upon the myths Yun was talking about, actually. Maybe Yun can clarify?

[vng78]

I thought this topic was long dead

Yeah, I know about that one in Fishbelly creek - wish I could see it myself one day.
Anyway, squallxx you haven't really explained much about its mechanism.
Do you also have information on all its gates?

The Maze.
For what it's worth, I'm thinking that the maze itself is static meaning it doesn't change like what the novel described. Since there are so many combinations, the person who employs it may simply choose which combinations he/she wants to use to create the maze. Imagine, a really really big place, with 64 main boulders/pillars and others to block certain paths. You can get very confused and trapped inside very quickly and easily without its boulders switching positions and all.

The Formation.
I have nothing much to add. The explanations that Yun gave about it being an anti-cavalry formation makes sense. Anyway, into some experiments I recently played Shogun TotalWar again and I was bored, so I deployed my troops according to the Eight Array Formation - more or less. It looks like a big, loose formation but I can feel that it is actually one, coherent formation. The basic strategy is move the inner and central divisions to engage the enemy and the outer divisions encircle the enemy. I used this tactic and formation in a few of battles (vs AI of course) and trashed the AI without losing too many on my side (AI lost 1000 men and I barely lost 100 or so but not perfect everytime though).

Well, it's just a simulator and hey I was bored. But I have seen it for myself. I can basically conclude that there are also many factors that one has to consider when using this formation and that includes terrain, unit composition and most importantly, your enemy disposition. Maybe that partly explains why (if it's so in the history) Zhuge Liang only used it once.

Vince

[ih8eurocentrix]

can u show a daigram of how it works i play rome total war too.

[general_jiang]

ih8eurocentrix, on Dec 14 2005, 01:54 AM, said:

can u show a daigram of how it works i play rome total war too.

Yes, can somebody show how the diagram works?

Thanks.

[David Lucas]

The "Eightfold Division of Formations" as reconstructed by Chang Chen-tse "Sun Pin ping-fa chiao-li". Peking (1984) 68-71

WIND BIRD EARTH

TIGER [COMMANDER] DRAGON

CLOUD SNAKE HEAVEN
As reconstructed by Hsu P'ei-ken & Wei Ju-lin. Sun Pin ping-fa chu-shih. Taipei: Li-ming wn-hua shih-yeh kung-szu, 1976 (please excuse the Wade-Giles romanization )

Select
Vanguard
Force
I
1st Infantry
Division
I
2nd Cavalry...............................................Support.....................................1st Cavalry &
& Chariot Division........................................Troops......................................Chariot Division
3rd Infantry....................................2nd Infantry
Division........................................Division
I
3rd Cavalry
& Chariot Division
From Sun Bin bingfa Chapter 7: the eightfold division of formations
Master Sun Bin said: "When putting the eightfold division of formations into battle operation, turn to account whatever advantages the terrain permits and adapt the formation to meet these conditions. Divid your main body in three with each of these detachments having a vanguard force and each having a rear support. All should wait for the order before moving. Commit one detachment to the fray while holding the other two in reserve. Use one detachment to actually assault the enemy and rein in the other two. When the enemy is weak and in disarray, commit your select shock troops to gain a quick advantage. But where he is strong and in well-ordered formation, commit your weaker troops first to bait him. Divide the chariots and cavalry that will be used in combat into three detachments: one on either flank and one at the rear. On flat and easy ground, make greater use of the war chariot; on rugged terrain use more cavalry; on terrain that is sher and closes in on both sides, use more crossbowmen. Taking into account both the rugged and the easy terrain, you must distinguish between safe ground that affords escape and terrain that is a death trap. And you must attack the enemy caught in the death trap from the safe ground you occupy."

[abestrus]

I know I probably won't get any sympathy for this, but I can't read Chinese. So if there is anyway to get links on this formation in English it would be awesome and greatly appreciated. I'm trying to learn Chinese guys, but I think I'll be a very very old man before I start to get a grip on it. I think I'll just go on Google and look up the formation, but I'm always afraid of Google. Because the last time I tried it I got a Trojan on my computer. Good thing my firewall and antivirus took care of it. So I appreciate any help I can get. I'm gonna try it on my Shogun Total War, see how effective it is.

[General_Zhaoyun]

I don't quite understand why it's called 'bagua 八卦" (8 array maze). Does the formation has something to do with the "Dao" of formation and harnessing a pattern similar to the Bagua in I-Ching (daoism)?

[LYY]

〈八陣合變圖說敘〉

1. 天覆陣贊

天陣十六，外方內圓。四為風揚，其形象天。為陣之主，為兵之先。善用三軍，其形不偏。


2. 地載陣贊

地陣十二，其形正方。雲主四角，冲敵難當。其體莫測，動用無窮。獨立不可，配之於陽。


3. 風揚陣贊

風無正形，附之於天。變而為蛇，其意漸玄。風能鼓物，萬物撓焉。蛇能為繞，三軍懼焉。


4. 雲垂陣贊

雲附於地，始則無形。變為翔鳥，其狀乃成。鳥能突擊，雲能晦冥。千變萬化，金革之聲。


5. 龍飛陣贊

天地後衝，龍變其中。有爪有足，有背有胸。潛則不測，動則無窮。陣形赫然，象名為龍。


6. 虎翼陣贊

天地前衝，變為虎翼。伏虎將搏，盛其威力。淮陰用之，變為無極。垓下之會，魯公莫測。


7. 鳥翔陣贊

鷙鳥將摶，必先翱翔。勢凌霄漢，飛禽伏藏。審之而下，必有中傷。一夫突擊，三軍莫當。


8. 蛇蟠陣贊

風為蛇蟠，附天成形。勢能圍遶，性能屈伸。四奇之中，與虎為鄰。後變常山，首尾相因。

[LYY]

The Maze of Eight Array (八阵图), tracing its dichotomy

This post has been edited by LYY: 20 January 2008 - 10:22 PM