[Bao Pu]

It has been suggested by Derk Bodde (China's First Unifier: A Study of the Ch'in Dynasty as Seen in the Life of Li Ssù) that Li Si was more responsible for all of Qin's accomplishments. After going over Shihuangdi's life, he says, "We now see Qin Shihuang as a man who was impetuous, easily swayed in his emotions, and grossly superstitious, a temperment often characteristic of the powerful but uncultured conqueror. Li Si, on the contrary, appears as a man who was cold, calculating, and eminently rational ..." and, after mentioning his reliance on Lü Buwei and the then Li Si, he concludes, "When we read the Shiji, therefore, of the great deeds performed by Qin Shihuang, we should remember that in all likelihood they are attributed to him through courtesy only, and that probably their actual author was usually Li Si." (p. 112-123)

This post has been edited by Bao Pu: 26 September 2005 - 04:43 PM

[Sephodwyrm]

Although I cannot disprove this directly, his accusation of Ying Zheng as impetuous, emotional, grossly superstitious, uncultured etc are accusations without solid proof. I have to add that his grossly superstitious part was also practiced by numerous rulers before and after him, so I don't see how that has anything to do with Li Si.

Derk Bodde should be more responsible academically and not jump into conclusions just by reading the Shiji.

[fcharton]

Bao Pu, on Sep 24 2005, 05:44 PM, said:

It has been suggested by Derk Bodde (China's First Unifier: A Study of the Ch'in Dynasty as Seen in the Life if Li Ssù) that Li Si was more responsible for all of Qin's accomplishments. After going over Shihuangdi's life, he says, "We now see Qin Shihuang as a man who was impetuous, easily swayed in his emotions, and grossly superstitious, a temperment often characteristic of the powerful but uncultured conqueror. Li Si, on the contrary, appears as a man who was cold, calculating, and eminently rational ..." and, after mentioning his reliance on Lü Buwei and the then Li Si, he concludes, "When we read the Shiji, therefore, of the great deeds performed by Qin Shihuang, we should remember that in all likelihood they are attributed to him through courtesy only, and that probably their actual author was usually Li Si." (p. 112-123)

Bao Pu,

I believe Bodde's comment, though he might have exagerated it for effect, has a lot of truth in it. In my opinion, it can be put in two perspectives.

First, there is a longstanding tradition in chinese historiography which considers that mighty states proceed from the conjunction of an able king and an able premier. This probably comes from the story of Yao and Shun, but can also be found in many later kingdoms, for instance, Goujian of Yue (a typical die hard conqueror) and Fan Li (the intelligent premier). On the other hand, the demise of Wu can be attributed (the Shi Ji heavily suggests it), to a bad choice of premier by King Fuchai : by preferring the corrupted Bo Pei, to the abler Wu Zixu, Fuchai managed to lose, in just 20 years, the impressive position gained by his father, King Helu. I suppose examples of this situation could be multiplied.

As such, Qin Shihuang / Li Si would be such a case of a "dream team" : able king+excellent premier, whereas Qu Ershihuang / Zhao Gao whould show (as in the story of Fuchai) how this system can go wrong.

Parallel to this, there is another old idea that great empires are built both through military valour and political cunning. The succession in the founding tales of kingdoms (starting with the kings of Zhou) of a King (or Duke, or prince) Wen and a King Wu (the litterate and the warrior) is a pretty common story (I think Granet discusses this in detail). The warrior-king / philosopher-premier system might be derived from this idea.

As such, Sima Qian's account of Qin Shihuang and Li Si could be seen as the continuation of a long historical tradition. I find the idea all the more convincing as I believe that Sima Qian is very partial to Qin Shihuang. Given his official situation in the court of the Han, he cannot go as far as praising him, but still, his portray of the first emperor shows quite a bit of respect for the man and his talent.

Second, legalism is the perfect setting for this kind of situation to appear. The legalist idea of governement relies on the principle that, once the laws have been written, and a centralised bureaucracy has been charged to implement them, the king has nothing left to do. One could view it as a perversion of the Daoist inaction (wuwei) principle: the emperor is like the Dao, once the laws are written, he does not need to act anymore. As such, most of the power lies in the judicial branch, incarnated in the premier. As such, the legalist system reinforces the importance of the Premier, and its adoption by Qin Shihuang must have increased the importance of Li Si. As a matter of fact, the Qin political system has some ideas in common with modern Socialist systems (where Party leaders usually wield more power than the heads of state), and with the recent Neoconservative vision of politic (a charismatic president, seconded by a team of experts).

This said, Bodde's argument cannot be pushed too far. The story of Li Si's demise shows how much he depended on Qin Shihuang : without an able King, the best Premier cannot survive in a world of intrigues. Being able to keep one Premier, not having the power split between several counsellors (a temptation for any leader), certainly proves that Qin Shihuang was a very gifted politician. Also, the vision of Qin as a semi-barbaric western kingdom, led by a brutal conqueror, though it might be what the old central kingdoms wanted to believe, is not convincing. Just the fact that Qin adopted such an elaborate political system as Legalism proves the contrary.

To summarise, I agree that Li Si should be more credited for Qin's successes, but portraying Qin Shihuang as a weak character seems a bit too much.

To Sephodwyrm : the Shi Ji seems to be the only (almost) contemporary source available on the first emperor. That Bodde relies on it seems fair to me.

Francois

This post has been edited by fcharton: 26 September 2005 - 08:31 AM

[Bao Pu]

Thanks Sephodwyrm and François for your comments

Please remember that what I have quoted by Bodde is a small, small portion of his book (270 pages). I haven't read alot of this book on Shihuangdi and Li Si, but it's possible that in it he did provide "soild proof." I have read nothing to convince me that other rulers were just as superstitious as Shihuangdi (perhaps Han Wudi?), but, then again, I am not as well-versed in Chinese history as you (I mean this sincerely). Bodde mentions that nowhere in the Shiji does it mention Li Si connected with Shihuangdi's superstitious excesses but instead is always cold, calculating and quite rational.

François, your description of this pattern is insightful Let's not forget Lü Buwei also. Ying Zheng (Shihuangdi) was never without a minister/tutor many years his senior to help him make decisions.

How long his Li Si's biography in the Shiji? Is it reasonable to ask someone to translate it here? It would be a great contribution to this community. Unfortunately, I am not up to the task myself

[fcharton]

Bao Pu, on Sep 26 2005, 01:18 PM, said:

Thanks Sephodwyrm and François for your comments

Please remember that what I have quoted by Bodde is a small, small portion of his book (270 pages). I haven't read alot of this book on Shihuangdi and Li Si, but it's possible that in it he did provide "soild proof." I have read nothing to convince me that other rulers were just as superstitious as Shihuangdi (perhaps Han Wudi?), but, then again, I am not as well-versed in Chinese history as you (I mean this sincerely). Bodde mentions that nowhere in the Shiji does it mention Li Si connected with Shihuangdi's superstitious excesses but instead is always cold, calculating and quite rational.

François, your description of this pattern is insightful Let's not forget Lü Buwei also. Ying Zheng (Shihuangdi) was never without a minister/tutor many years his senior to help him make decisions.

How long his Li Si's biography in the Shiji? Is it reasonable to ask someone to translate it here? It would be a great contribution to this community. Unfortunately, I am not up to the task myself

On superstition, I think it would be very hard to judge : a good emperor is religious, a bad one is superstitious, but both words actually describe similar practices. Sima Qian's interest in the 5 elements (eg the inclusion of the five emperors as the opening chapter of his work) could be termed both superstitious or religious....

You are quite right on Lu Buwei, of course.

Li Si's biography is pretty long for a biography, but biographies are short chapters... So it is not a very long piece. Also, if you have some understanding of old chinese, the biographies are the easiest parts of the Shiji, and the late periods even more so. So, you might try reading them in chinese (seriously, it is not as hard as it seems). You can find the text on www.chinapage.org (together with the three commentaries, which help a lot in clarifying things).

Your post whetted my appetite to try translating it. However, to have an accurate picture, it would be relevant to read it together with Qin Shihuang benji (the longest chapter in the Shi Ji iirc) and Lu Buwei Liezhuan. Sima Qian is an expert in using different chapters to provide complementary visions of one character, so just reading Li Si might prove deceitful...

For now, I want to finish my series on Wu and Yue (ie the Yue Shijia, Wu Zixu's biography and the assassin's biographies, which include Zhuanzhu, and Jingke, btw).

After that, I might try to post translations from the Qin-era. I have an old translation of Qin Shihuang Benji, so the hardest part is done, and have done bits of both Li Si and Lu Buwei... Now, I think that these three chapters have been translated by Watson (Qin Shihuang certainly is). Given my slow progress on translation, you would be better off trying to locate a copy of it...

Francois

[Bao Pu]

Hi François

All I have of Bodde's book is Chapter 5 & 6. I will just mention some of the things Bodde mentions about Ying Zheng - Qin Shihuangdi.

The school of thought which seems to have had the most influence on him was that of the Five Phases (Wuxing) and Daoism. Because he saw his Dynasty as that of water, he followed that line of thinking and honoured the colour black, the number six, renamed the Yellow River, and adopted severity as his guide. As for Daoism, he was attracted to tales of the Genuine People (Zhenren) who were immortal, could fly, and were impervious to harm. Zhuang Zi used these tales (or created them) as metaphors for spiritual freedom and not to be taken literally, in my opinion. These tales and methods for immortality perhaps originated from the Fangshi of the time (not sure how best to translate Fangshi). As is well-known, he sent envoys out to sea to search for Penglai and other places where these supposed immortals lived. Thousands died searching. Shihuangdi then began calling himself a Zhenren, hiding deep within his compound and travelling through tunnels, so no one would know where he was. This was to avoid being found by evil spirits who would hinder his desire to interact with Zhenren. Anyone disclosing his whereabouts was killed. Apparently, the Fangshi (?) could not stand him for long, and the Shiji records them saying, "Shihuang is a man whose nature is violent, cruel and despotic ... He thinks that since antiquity there has been nobody to equal him ... The emperor delights in showing his intimidating power by means of punishments and executions ... To such a stage has his thirst for power reached" (Bodde trans.). Shihuangdi was furious and the famous burying-alive of literati followed.

He deforested a mountain which he believed the spirits of the mountain were thwarting him.

He had an intense fear of death and no one was allowed to mention the word around him.

He epitomized megalomania.

So, the stories about him do portray him as impetuous and emotional, getting upset easily and lashing out at those who displeased him. As for superstitious, you are correct François that there is a fine line shared with religion. Let each of us decide for ourselves which is which. It still seems to me that a person with the temperment of Ying Zheng would really need someone rational like Li Si to accomplish order in the country.

As for Li Si, Bodde writes, "For the abolition of feudalism and the Burning of Books, at any rate, there can be little doubt that Li Si was responsible, and his biography reveals the real state of affairs regarding other reforms, when, after enumerating the various achievements of the new Qin empire, it states that 'in all these affairs (Li) Si exerted himself." These achievements include eliminating feudalism, destroying weapons, ending nepotism, confiscation and destruction of the Odes and Documents, clarifying laws, fixing regulations, standardizing writing, building palaces, etc. And then there is Li Si's memorial which he wrote while in prison before his death, which, of course, may not be altogether trustworthy, but certainly claims credit for many things.

Of course, this is all just speculation. Whether it is convincing or not depends on us.

[fcharton]

Bao Pu,

I remember reading some time ago (possible in Levi's preface to his translation of Han Feizi) that Legalism originated in Daoism, which would explain a few things on Qin Shihuang's beliefs. Do you know more about this? (his obsession about secrecy could be seen as a perversion of Laozi's "the best prince is unknown to his people")

Also, I read (a long time ago, and despite repeated attempt, I never was able to trace the source back) that the Wuxing theory, although it certainly drew on previous schools of thought) was a later construct, from the beginning of the Western Han in fact (and this might cast some doubt on Sima Qian's testimony). Or were the five elements an old component of the Daoist canon, which thus came to be incorporated into Legalism?

Francois

[Bao Pu]

fcharton, on Sep 27 2005, 04:53 AM, said:

I remember reading some time ago (possible in Levi's preface to his translation of Han Feizi) that Legalism originated in Daoism, which would explain a few things on Qin Shihuang's beliefs. Do you know more about this? (his obsession about secrecy could be seen as a perversion of Laozi's "the best prince is unknown to his people")

Levi translated the Hanfeizi? Is that in french or english? I had thought only Liao and Watson had done English translations. But no, I don't think Legalism originated in Daoism, but some of the Laozi's insights were appropriated for Legalist purposes. Moreover, it seems Qin Shihuangdi was not familiar with the Laozi, but rather the Zhuangzi - which does seem rather strange. But you may be right about his secrecy beings a product of Lao Zi-influenced Legalism (Han Fei suggested secrecy in his book).

Quote

Also, I read (a long time ago, and despite repeated attempt, I never was able to trace the source back) that the Wuxing theory, although it certainly drew on previous schools of thought) was a later construct, from the beginning of the Western Han in fact (and this might cast some doubt on Sima Qian's testimony). Or were the five elements an old component of the Daoist canon, which thus came to be incorporated into Legalism?

Aihe Wang carefully traces the origins of Wuxing cosmology in her book Cosmology and Political Culture in Early China. I don't believe it has much to do with early Daoism (none of them mention it). It has its roots in Shang Sifang cosmology, but is significantly different. Wang's book shows that Sifang and Wuxing changed with the times - the political times, to be specific. Mark Lewis and Wang both emphasize that "there was a 'reciprocal dialectic' between cosmology and the new political order during the Warring States." If a school of thought has to be associated with Wuxing cosmology, I suggest that it is Yin-Yang Jia. It is older than Western Han though. A rudimentary form first appears in the Zuozhuan I believe, and was developed in the Warring States period. Most importantly, like many ideas and such in ancient China (or anywhere), everyone did not share the exact same idea about things. There were several "Wuxing theories" throughout the country, just as there were different Confucians, Daoists, Legalists, Logicians, and 'common-people beliefs." That is one big reason why it is so difficult to pin down any exact definition of terms used back then, because everyone used them differently.

Gotta run.....
thanks for the chat

[fcharton]

Bao Pu, on Sep 28 2005, 01:23 PM, said:

Levi translated the Hanfeizi? Is that in french or english? I had thought only Liao and Watson had done English translations.

Levi's translation is in french. The book is called Hanfei tseu - Le Tao du Prince, and was published in 1999 in the collection Points Sagesse. I read it a couple of years ago, and remember a pretty enjoyable style, and lots of notes. Unfortunately, I have lended my copy to someone, and just cannot remember who it was... But I will try to find it and spot the parts I was referring to.

Thank you very much for the clarification on Wuxing, Daoism and Legalism. I clearly need to learn a bit more about them.

Francois