79 replies to this topic

[Yun]

Most students of Chinese history are familiar with the phrase "Wuhu Luanhua" - Five "Hu" (barbarian peoples) Overrunning China. It's used to describe the rebellions by various non-Han groups (commonly mistakenly termed as "invasions") in the early 4th century that toppled the Western Jin dynasty and brought on nearly three centuries of north-south division.

Traditional Chinese historiography groups these non-Han peoples together as the Five "Hu": the Xiongnu, the Jie, the Di, the Qiang, and the Xianbei. However, the Jie were traditionally regarded as just another type of Xiongnu, and the Di were regarded as being essentially of the same proto-Tibetan stock as the Qiang.

This traditional view has been extensively debated and critiqued in the 20th century. The Jie have been alternatively identified as Kushans or Tocharians (Yuezhi), while I myself suspect they were Soghdians. It has also been suggested that the Di were more closely related to the southwestern Yunnan minorities of today's China than to the Tibetans.

To add to the problem, there were actually more than five peoples involved in the wars in north China. The Dingling (a Turkic people) attempted to set up a state along the Yellow River, but were defeated by the Murong Xianbei in 392. The Juqu family who ruled the Northern Liang state in the Gansu Corridor are described as "Lushui Hu", which has traditionally been identified as Xiongnu but has also been theorised to be Kushan. And the "Ba Di" who founded the Cheng state in Sichuan in 303 were probably not quite the same people as the Di - they may have had more in common with the aboriginal Man people of south China.

Questions and comments regarding the various peoples mentioned above are very welcome!

[Yihesan]

IIRC the Xianbei and Wuhuan were two branchs of the earlier Donghu (Eastern Hu). I would like to know more about the Donghu, mostly about their origins, their culture, etc...

[General_Zhaoyun]

The "hu" (胡) was a generic term used by the chinese to refer to those barbarian steppe tribes that dwell in Mongolia, Manchuria and North China during ancient times. During the period of disunion (after the collapse of Han dynasty), there was a period of time where these barbarians occupied China. It became known in chinese history as "Wu Hu Luan Hua" (五胡乱华), which means the 5 "hu" tribes creating 'havoc' in China through conquest and incessant wars.

The five "hu" are XiongNu (匈奴), Jie(羯), Di (氐), Qiang (羌) and Xianbei (鲜卑).

I'll talk briefly about these 5 'hu' people plus other 'hu'.

XiongNu

XiongNu was one of the earliest "hu" people that established a strong steppe empire in Mongolia and Northern China. The 1st record of "XiongNu" name appeared in the historic records of the warring states period (around 3rd century BC). At that time, there was also a tribe known as "Eastern Hu" or "Dong Hu" (东胡) that co-existed at the same time as XiongNu. During the Qin dynasty, Qinshihuang ordered an invasion of led by General Meng Huo, which forced the Xiongnu to retreat 700 miles. To establish a defence against XiongNu, Qinshihuang ordered the construction of the great wall (joining the walls of previous warring states) to defend against these barbarian raiders.

Despite of these, XiongNu continued to threaten China for ages. During western han dynasty, Emperor Han Wudi ordered an expedition of 3 times that helped recovered lost lands. In 48 AD, the XiongNu splitted into North and Southern groups. The Southern Group defected to Eastern-Han dynasty, which caused a migration of XiongNu into inner China. The northern XiongNu continued to wage war against the Han, but eventually, the Han, in allied with other northern "Hu" tribes, manage to defeat the northern XiongNu. The Northern XiongNu fled westwards and eventually ended up in Europe to be known in the west as "Huns".

Eastern Hu or "Dong Hu"
Eastern "hu" belonged to one of the northern nomadic tribes that dwelled in northern China and Mongolia. Because XiongNu had been living in this region for 200 years and was the most powerful among them, many chinese tended to label XiongNu as "hu" people, in particular, XiongNu were called "Northern Hu", the tribes that lived in the west of XiongNu were called "Western Hu", while those in the east were called "Eastern Hu".

The Eastern Hu was a much larger alliance of tribes. During the times of warring states, they co-existed with the XiongNu to become a powerful force in the north. They constantly threatened states of Yan, Zhao and Qin. The collapse of Eastern Hu fell within the late period of Qin dyansty. In 209 BC, Modu Chanyu of the XiongNu led a force of 100,000 and conquered the Eastern Hu. From then on, the eastern Hu became dispersed. From this sprung two tribes: Wuhuan and Xianbei.

Wuhuan (乌桓)
The Wuhuan was one of the faction of Eastern "hu", that dwelled in the Wuhuan mountain. During Emperor Wudi's time (Western Han dynasty), after defeating the XiongNu, Emperor Wudi had Wuhuan and Xianbei migrated to Manchuria area, but Wuhuan continued to be under the control of the XiongNu. In 48 AD, after the XiongNu splitted into two, Wuhuan defected to the Eastern Han dynasty. During late period of Eastern han dynasty, China became turbulent and Wuhuan established their own kingdom only to find themselves being defeated by Cao Cao.. During the period of disunion, Wuhuan was conquered by Xianbei and mixed with the other "hu" tribes. They slowly disappeared into history.

Xianbei
Xianbei was one of the Eastern "hu" tribes that dwelled in the mountain of Xianbei. During the early times, they mixed with the XiongNu, Dinglin, Wuhuan as well as han-chinese to form different composition and tribes. The main tribes of Xianbei were "Dongbu Xianbei" and "Toba Xianbei".

The Dongbu Xianbei's main factions such as YuWen, Duangbu, Murong migrated southwards during the period of disunion and established various kingdoms. The Toba Xianbei was a mixture between XiongNu and Xianbei.

In 386 AD, Toba Xianbei established Northern Wei dynasty and in 439 AD unified Northern China (Northern Dynasty). In 471 AD, Emperor Xiao WenDi of Northern Wei began a sinification program that changed the Xianbei into han-chinese.

Di and Qiang
Di and Qiang were a western tribe that dwelled in west China.They were closely related to the tibetans origin. During the early Qin period, they dwelled around the tibetan plateau area. Di and Qiang established a few regime in China. For instance, Di's Fushi established the "Qian Zhao" (Early Zhao) kingdom in 4th century, which almost unify all the kingdoms in the north and tried to conquer the Eastern Jin dynasty in the south. In 383 AD, a war was fought at Feshui, in which the Eastern Jin defeated the Qian Zhao. Fushi was killed by Qiang. The Qiang's DiShi established the "Hou Qin" (Late Qin) regime with its capital at Chang'an during the 4th century AD. One of the the factions of Qiang, Dangxiang (Tangut), established the Western Xia dynasty in 1038.

(**..it's hard for me to type further.. as they are so much information, I've merely summarised)

I don't have infomation on Jie.. can anyone shed some info on it?

[Yun]

Some little corrections to GZ's overview

The "hu" (胡) was a generic term used by the chinese to refer to those barbarian steppe tribes that dwell in Mongolia, Manchuria and North China during ancient times.

I dislike using the word "tribes" to refer to an entire ethnic group. Tribes are actually large clan units within an ethnic group, but the term has been misused to refer to any group of people perceived as "barbaric". Similarly, I'd use the word "barbarian" strictly in quotation marks because it's a highly prejudiced term.

Probably the best way to refer to the various kinds of Hu is as "peoples" or "ethnic groups". I don't like using the politically-loaded word "nation" either.

Actually, "Hu" was also later used to refer to any foreigner from the West, from Central Asians to Arabs to Indians. For some reason, it was not applied to Europeans.

During the Qin dynasty, Qinshihuang ordered an invasion of led by General Meng Huo, which forced the Xiongnu to retreat 700 miles.

The general's name was Meng Tian.

The Northern XiongNu fled westwards and eventually ended up in Europe to be known in the west as "Huns".

Whether the Huns were the descendants of the Northern Xiongnu is still much debated - there is not enough evidence to prove it.

For instance, Di's Fushi established the "Qian Zhao" (Early Zhao) kingdom in 4th century, which almost unify all the kingdoms in the north and tried to conquer the Eastern Jin dynasty in the south. In 383 AD, a war was fought at Feshui, in which the Eastern Jin defeated the Qian Zhao. Fushi was killed by Qiang.

The Earlier/Former Zhao (Qian Zhao) was actually the "Han" state established by the Xiongnu in 304 which destroyed the Western Jin (refer to the "Age of Fragmentation" thread in Beginner's Chinese History). In 318, its fourth ruler Liu Yao changed the state's name to Zhao.

The Di state established by the Fu family was called Earlier/Former Qin (Qian Qin). I'll talk more about the Battle of the Fei River (Feishui) in the "Age of Fragmentation" thread.

[Yun]

The Jie

The origins and ethnicity of the Jie are highly obscure. In one contemporary source (the Wei Shu) they are identified as a branch of the Xiongnu. In another source they are identified as descendants of the aristocracy of Qiangqu, which is an alternate transliteration of the Central Asian state known as Kangju (said to be located around present-day Tashkent and Turkistan on the Syr river, Kazakhstan).

The famous Chinese historian Chen Yinke formulated a theory that identified the Jie as descendants of the Yuezhi (Kushans or Tocharians) who had remained in northern Central Asia after their defeat by the Xiongnu (most of the Yuezhi fled to Bactria where they founded the Kushan Empire). He derived this from the name of the famous Jie leader Shi Le, in which "Shi" is thought to reflect his place of origin. According to the Xin Tang Shu, Shi was one of the Nine Clans of Zhaowu (Zhaowu Jiuxing), who were Yuezhi who had fled to the Pamirs after being driven from the Gansu Corridor by the Xiongnu. Among these Nine Clans, warriors were known as Shi Jie - hence the origin of the ethnic name "Jie". [Note: These Jiuxing are different from the Toquz Oghuz mentioned elsewhere by Yihesan in relation to the Turuk/Tujue.]

This theory was apparently supported by the clear record of the Jie as having high noses and full beards, which is also a feature of the "Indo-European", Iranian-like Yuezhi. The problem is that the Yuezhi were not the only Central Asians with such features.

My personal theory is that the Jie were Sogdians, a people who were active as merchants on the Silk Road during this period and were also said to be desendants of the Zhaowu Jiuxing. The Sogdians, too, had their homeland in the Tashkent-Samarkand-Bukhara region, and they too adopted Chinese surnames that reflected the region in Sogdiana from which they came. The Sogdian surname "Shi" corresponds to Tashkent! There are also suggestions from the sources that the Jie, while later patronising Buddhism, were originally Zoroastrians, which is the religion of the Sogdians.

The Jie under Shi Le founded the Later Zhao (Hou Zhao) state during the Age of Fragmentation, which expanded to rule most of north China, including the Xiongnu, Qiang and Di populations. Only the Xianbei remained independent. However, in 349 the Later Zhao state collapsed into civil war between the sons of Shi Hu, the third Zhao king. A Han general named Ran Min was able to seize power, and conducted a massacre of all Jie in the capital city (he identified them by their noses and beards). This essentially decimated the Jie ruling class in China. However two famous warlords in the 6th century, Erzhu Rong and Hou Jing, were also said to be Jie. Furthermore, the Sogdians remained prominent on the Silk Road well into the Tang dynasty.

[General_Zhaoyun]

Thanks for your correction and great posts, Yun.

Whether the Huns were the descendants of the Northern Xiongnu is still much debated - there is not enough evidence to prove it.

No idea, why my chinese history book mentioned that huns 'originated' from Northern XiongNu..I'm not well-informed about the history of XiongNu and the details of their migration to Europe.

[Borjigin Ayurbarwada]

The Jie under Shi Le founded the Later Zhao (Hou Zhao) state during the Age of Fragmentation, which expanded to rule most of north China, including the Xiongnu, Qiang and Di populations. Only the Xianbei remained independent.

The Murong for a time did recognize Zhao soverignty, When they declared independent, Shi Hu attacked and was victorious but met a disaster on his way home. And from then on Murong became fully independent.

My personal theory is that the Jie were Sogdians, a people who were active as merchants on the Silk Road during this period and were also said to be desendants of the Zhaowu Jiuxing. The Sogdians, too, had their homeland in the Tashkent-Samarkand-Bukhara region, and they too adopted Chinese surnames that reflected the region in Sogdiana from which they came. The Sogdian surname "Shi" corresponds to Tashkent! There are also suggestions from the sources that the Jie, while later patronising Buddhism, were originally Zoroastrians, which is the religion of the Sogdians.

Thats interesting, I know Tashkent was called Shi Guo, but when have that name appear to describe Tashkent?

Whether the Huns were the descendants of the Northern Xiongnu is still much debated - there is not enough evidence to prove it.

This theory is already agreed by most scholars, some even say it is so evident that it should no longer be a mere theory but an accepted fact. This is done from examination of skeleton, culture and historical gaps, the Hou Han Shu mention the Xiongnu to flee westward into Sogdiana after their base in Sogdiana were destroyed by the Xianbei. Its quite evident that the Huns at least had part xiongnu origin in them. While Roman sources first mention huns in the 3rd century A.d.

[Yun]

The Murong for a time did recognize Zhao soverignty, When they declared independent, Shi Hu attacked and was victorious but met a disaster on his way home. And from then on Murong became fully independent.

To be even more exact, the Murong Xianbei also pledged allegiance to the Eastern Jin until the fall of the Later Zhao. Then, when the Murong attacked Ran Min and the Eastern Jin aided Ran Min instead, the Murong renounced their allegiance. From then on the Yan and Eastern Jin were enemies.

Thats interesting, I know Tashkent was called Shi Guo, but when have that name appear to describe Tashkent?

Kang (Samarkand) was first mentioned (along with the other Zhaowu statelets, some of which were listed) in the Wei Shu. So was the kingdom of Sogdiana, which was northwest of Kang. However, Shi (Tashkent) was first mentioned only in the Xin Tangshu. In that description it was also mentioned that elite warriors were known as Shi Jie in An (Bukhara, another of the Zhaowu Sogdian statelets). This Jie is the same as the name of the ethnicity, and the Shi is the Shi of Tashkent and Shi Hu with a wood radical added.

It doesn't seem that the Jie were totally wiped out by Ran Min's massacre. Erzhu Rong and Hou Jing, two prominent northern warlords of the 6th century, were all said to have Jie ancestry. An Lushan was also called a Jie Hu by his enemies, and since he was a Sogdian the Jie-Sogdian connection seems quite solid.

[Borjigin Ayurbarwada]

"To be even more exact, the Murong Xianbei also pledged allegiance to the Eastern Jin until the fall of the Later Zhao. Then, when the Murong attacked Ran Min and the Eastern Jin aided Ran Min instead, the Murong renounced their allegiance. From then on the Yan and Eastern Jin were enemies."

I only recall them doing so after Shi Hu march toward them after he helped the Murong pacify the other Xianbei of Southern Manchuria. Shi Hu also had a domination over the Tobas in inner mongolia after helping their ruler get on the throne in 335 by sending Toba infantry in support. Similarily after Shi Hu's failure to subjugate the Yan, the Toba also revolted and submitted to Jin and got the title king of Dai in return.

[ren]

Were the Jie really Sogdians? I didn't know they extended that far.
Anyone with info on these two groups, please post.

[Yun]

That the Jie were Sogdians is a theory that has gained some acceptance in Chinese academic circles, but has yet to penetrate beyond that. Chen Yinke seems to have been the first to suggest that the Jie were descended from the Yuezhi and related to the Sogdian state of Tashkent (Shi). Their facial features, with long full beards, high noses and deep-set eyes, also make them more likely to be Sogdians than Xiongnu (as traditionally believed). There is some indication that the original religion of the Jie (before they embraced Buddhism) was Zoroastrianism.

Additional evidence is that in Sogdiana during the Tang, 'Jie' was a word for warrior, and An Lushan (whose step-father was Sogdian) is referred to in some Tang sources as a Jie-Hu.

[ren]

Any other Caucasians in ancient China proper? The Yuezhi/Tocharians don't count.

[kaixin]

I thought the Yuezhi migrated to Afghanistan from Gansu during the Han Dynasty? When Han emperor asked them for aid against the Xiongnu, they turned down the request and said they were content with their new home.

Maybe the Jie were a Turkic tribe who mixed heavily with Caucasoids?

[warlordgeneral]

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Edited by warlordgeneral, 31 March 2013 - 02:42 AM.