[Wujiang]

Yang Zongbao, on Oct 5 2005, 05:40 AM, said:

I particularly buy more into Adam Hsu's definition.
They're actually more like two different levels of understanding- Waijia being the most basic, and later you graduate to Neijia when you actually know how to use your Qi to fight, amongst other things.

I can't say I agree with Adam Hsu most of the time. Especially in this case. Internal training does not equal internal systems. All martial arts have external techniques and internal gong trainings, regardless of whether they are Wajia or Neijia. On the early stages of learning a system, both focuses entirely on external techniques as well as internal gong training of various forms with almost no clear link between the two. It is during the intermediate levels that you start seeing the effects of the gongs but it won't be until advance stages that you truely connect the two.

People claim that Neijia's principles are inheriantly different from Wajia because they uses neigong when fighting. What are 'unique' (and I am using this word in the weak sense here) about this neigong basically a combination of breath regulation combined with bodily (as opposed to limb) muscle power brings about a number of differnt kinds of strengths including moving your internal organs. But the fact is, when one is actually in combat where you are crossing seven or more moves in a second, you are not going to be drawing you power from breath and bodily movements each time. Take seven breath a second and you'd pass out ! So in application of techniques, it is only in VERY rare cases that you will be able to actually use that which makes you 'neijia'. Couple this with the fact that breath regulation is also a part of wajia systems, and it can generally be said that there really isn't any difference between the two when you are actually crossing hands.

In fact, the differentiation of Wajia and Nejia is flawed from the beginning. In practical terms, there are really nothing unique about neijia that wajia havn't got. Dispite what 'masters' may say, it is nothing more than a marketing ploy by martial artists of the ancient times in which says "We are the Neijia, we are better than those lowerly Wajia people".

[Kediren]

Yang Zongbao, on Oct 5 2005, 01:40 PM, said:

Everyone wants to claim that their style is the father of other styles.

I know lots of people try to link Taiji and Wudang, but it can't be proven.

Also, I read one of your links. They seem somewhat myth ridden, with Shaolin, Zhang Sanfeng, and differentiates between Waijia and Neijia as Buddhist or Daoist.

I particularly buy more into Adam Hsu's definition.
They're actually more like two different levels of understanding- Waijia being the most basic, and later you graduate to Neijia when you actually know how to use your Qi to fight, amongst other things.

Hmm..
i have hear that Adam Hsu mean, that classifications "internal and external" are not very clever..

i think he has right..

but you muss understand:

Wushu is classifications at North- and Soth- Wushu. (subjective, and at first time (~19 century.)!)

And after them one have found out, that Taiji Quan is popular in South and North China..(20 century)

therefore:

Have you now a new classification:

Wushu have 3 "Parts"= North, South and internal Wushu.. (competition classification in China)

It is very subjective and be good only for competition Rules.. (<--i mean!)

That all classifications are not a reality of Wushu..

If you will, cann you learn at first Taiji Quan, and after then a other "external" Styles.. As you will (wish)..

or you learn at first a "external" and later "internal" Styles.. (normaly Way for Wushu-Life)

or turned around...

sorry for my bad english

PS:

Quote

In fact, the differentiation of Wajia and Nejia is flawed from the beginning. In practical terms, there are really nothing unique about neijia that wajia havn't got.

You have right..

Quote

"We are the Neijia, we are better than those lowerly Wajia people".

Its only a "little pupil Style Patriotism"..

This post has been edited by Kediren: 05 October 2005 - 12:08 PM

[Kediren]

http://en.wikipedia....se_martial_arts <-- funny..

[CARDINAL009]

Yang Zongbao, on Oct 5 2005, 04:40 AM, said:

Everyone wants to claim that their style is the father of other styles.

I know lots of people try to link Taiji and Wudang, but it can't be proven.

Also, I read one of your links. They seem somewhat myth ridden, with Shaolin, Zhang Sanfeng, and differentiates between Waijia and Neijia as Buddhist or Daoist.

I particularly buy more into Adam Hsu's definition.
They're actually more like two different levels of understanding- Waijia being the most basic, and later you graduate to Neijia when you actually know how to use your Qi to fight, amongst other things.

Agreed w/ you.

Done many yrs of research. There's no actual connection between Taiji and WuDang.

These days there are some systems in China that claims linkage to Wu Dang.

[Kediren]

Quote

Done many yrs of research. There's no actual connection between Taiji and WuDang.

proof?

Quote

These days there are some systems in China that claims linkage to Wu Dang.

GGG***

It bring more money..

-

This post has been edited by Kediren: 08 October 2005 - 02:22 AM

[CARDINAL009]

Kediren, on Oct 8 2005, 12:21 AM, said:

proof?
GGG***

It bring more money..

-

Since you made the original point, you can prove it.
Lets see how many backed your assertion.

[Kediren]

CARDINAL009, on Oct 14 2005, 12:47 AM, said:

Since you made the original point, you can prove it.
Lets see how many backed your assertion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_marti...s#Daoist_styles

<<Daoist styles
Daoist styles are styles that were created or trained mostly within Daoist Temples or by Daoist ascetics, which often later spread out to laymen. These styles include those trained in the Wudang temple, and often include Daoist principles, philosophy, and imagery. Some of these arts include Taijiquan, Wudangquan, Baguazhang, and Huolongzhang.<<

i have more proofs for it..

Quote

Done many yrs of research. There's no actual connection between Taiji and WuDang .

Sorry but it was your thesis..

therefore.. can you also prove your thesis?

This post has been edited by Kediren: 14 October 2005 - 12:07 AM

[BlueDragonMagik]

Kediren, on Oct 13 2005, 09:47 PM, said:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_marti...s#Daoist_styles

<<Daoist styles
Daoist styles are styles that were created or trained mostly within Daoist Temples or by Daoist ascetics, which often later spread out to laymen. These styles include those trained in the Wudang temple, and often include Daoist principles, philosophy, and imagery. Some of these arts include Taijiquan, Wudangquan, Baguazhang, and Huolongzhang.<<

i have more proofs for it..



Sorry but it was your thesis..

therefore.. can you also prove your thesis?

I learned that "History in Chinese Martial Arts" is so screwed up. ... That I stop even reading about it. ... These days everyone has this fantasy of when they go to China and visit WuTang mountain that there are people flying around with swords and axes. ... It ain't so ... After a hundred years, people start making up history about who is associated with who. ... Almost as bad as the story of Bruce Lee fighting Jack Man Wong in the 1960s ... How about getting back to the topic of Xing Yi. ... Kediren! ... You know so much. ... Are you a real deal sifu where ever you are at ... ? "Old Europe"!

[Wujiang]

Kediren, on Oct 8 2005, 01:21 AM, said:

proof?

It is the lack of proof of any connection between Wudang and those systems.

Quote

http://en.wikipedia....s#Daoist_styles

Just how many times have this forum made claim that wikipedia is not a reliable source ?
Would people please stop using it ????
Most people who put articles up there are ametuers and are likely to write their own fantasies and actual facts. And in this case, it is obvious that the author knows NOTHING of CMA history.

This post has been edited by Wujiang: 14 October 2005 - 03:11 AM

[Kediren]

BlueDragonMagik, on Oct 14 2005, 08:56 AM, said:

I learned that "History in Chinese Martial Arts" is so screwed up. ... That I stop even reading about it. ... These days everyone has this fantasy of when they go to China and visit WuTang mountain that there are people flying around with swords and axes. ... It ain't so ... After a hundred years, people start making up history about who is associated with who. ... Almost as bad as the story of Bruce Lee fighting Jack Man Wong in the 1960s ... How about getting back to the topic of Xing Yi. ... Kediren! ... You know so much. ... Are you a real deal sifu where ever you are at ... ? "Old Europe"!

<<These days everyone has this fantasy of when they go to China and visit WuTang mountain that there are people flying around with swords and axes.<<



Ok.. that was a mystical legend.. (and Eastern storys)

hm.. i was in Wudanchan and other Place in China..
And i havent see anyone flying with swords..


But i have see many Daoistic Monks and Prists they maked training Taiji Quan, Bagua zhang and XingYi Quan .. (that with Wudanchan Taiji Quan Questions was you, not me )

<<Are you a real deal sifu where ever you are at ... ? <<

Hm.. not really.. i do not teaching a Wushu..

"Old Europe" is a big Land in Europe that not will a war in Irak..

(i hope u dont have a problem with it..)

Sorry but if you make a statement you must at the first to proof your state, and do not flee in "back to the Topic"..

And i think that a Martial Arts handle a Wushu-history and Wushu-(subjective!)classification very neutrally and objective..

GL
Kediren

This post has been edited by Kediren: 14 October 2005 - 03:15 AM

[Kediren]

Wujiang, on Oct 14 2005, 09:34 AM, said:

It is the lack of proof of any connection between Wudang and those systems.


Just how many times have this forum made claim that wikipedia is not a reliable source ?
Would people please stop using it ????
Most people who put articles up there are ametuers and are likely to write their own fantasies and actual facts. And in this case, it is obvious that the author knows NOTHING of CMA history.

Many People are amateurs and make a good Job..

Sorry but i think that Wiki are very respictable Enciklopedia..
And.. If you have a problem with a Statemens in the Wiki why do you not to disprove a "false" other-peoples-means?

i dont hear that Wiki make a poblem with it..



http://www.wushu.com.cn/ <-- another source..

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/711...8121015-6497447 <-- more source..

i have still more.. pn please..

This post has been edited by Kediren: 14 October 2005 - 03:52 AM

[Wujiang]

Kediren, on Oct 14 2005, 02:46 AM, said:

Sorry but i think that Wiki are very respictable Enciklopedia..

I rest my case

[Kediren]

Wujiang, on Oct 14 2005, 11:00 AM, said:

I rest my case

i rest my case and respect your case..

[BlueDragonMagik]

Kediren, on Oct 14 2005, 01:08 AM, said:

<<These days everyone has this fantasy of when they go to China and visit WuTang mountain that there are people flying around with swords and axes.<<



Ok.. that was a mystical legend.. (and Eastern storys)

hm.. i was in Wudanchan and other Place in China..
And i havent see anyone flying with swords..


But i have see many Daoistic Monks and Prists they maked training Taiji Quan, Bagua zhang and XingYi Quan .. (that with Wudanchan Taiji Quan Questions was you, not me )

<<Are you a real deal sifu where ever you are at ... ? <<

Hm.. not really.. i do not teaching a Wushu..

GL
Kediren

But you are so knowledgeable. ... You must be a Sifu. ...

[Kediren]

BlueDragonMagik, on Oct 14 2005, 07:42 PM, said:

But you are so knowledgeable. ... You must be a Sifu. ...

No.. it was not my wish to be a sifu..
To be a sifu muss you do have many time, a will and a patience to teach other Peoples..

can you please let this senseless discussion about my personality..


http://www.xingyiquan.org/ <-- funny and mistical site.. (Nothing without lgin..)

I dont know what is on this site.. But i find that it is interesting to know another people means about XingYiQuan..

This post has been edited by Kediren: 14 October 2005 - 02:45 PM