[Tibet Libre]

There was some ago a quite intreresting thread about "what the West & the Arabs invented before China".
Along the lines of this thread, I'd like to pose a different question: What did the East invent after 1500 (till 1900)?
Specifically, I am talking about China, Japan and Korea.

So far I have come up with
- Korea [1500s]: the first iron-clad ships (though its roof being out of iron is doubted by some)
- Korea [1440s]: Hangul - the first language whose characters depict the way they are pronounced
- China [1710s]: Kangxi Dictionary - worth mentioning for its vastness and its scientific methodology
- China [1500s]: TCM compilation of Li Shizhen - worth mentioning for its completeness

What more?

--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---

I have one question: Did the Kangxi, very much like any modern encyclopedia, also include definitions of the words, terms and notions it listed? Or was it basically restricted to the orthography of the Chinese characters?

This post has been edited by Tibet Libre: 20 June 2010 - 06:04 AM

[TMPikachu]

wallpaper.

hmmm, I think some kind of toilet too, not sure.

[Inst]

? Hangul is not the first phonetic language...

[Kulong]

Inst, on Oct 6 2005, 09:30 PM, said:

? Hangul is not the first phonetic language...

I'm sure what Tibet Libre meant that it's the first "character-based" phonetic script... meaning each syllable is its own character so it's superior to other phonetic scripts where it's more difficult to differentiate between syllables of a word.

[Tibet Libre]

I meant that the way Hangul characters are drawn indicates how they are pronounced:

Quote

Hangul is unique among the world's scripts in being featural. Scripts may indicate morphemes (so called logograms like hanja), syllables (like kana), or segments (an alphabet of consonants and/or vowels, like the one you're reading here). Hangul goes further than this, in indicating individual distinctive phonetic features such as place of articulation (labial, coronal, velar, glottal) and manner of articulation (plosive, nasal, sibilant, aspirated) for consonant jamo, and yotization (a preceding y- sound), harmonic class, and umlaut for vowel jamo.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hangul

[ih8eurocentrix]

Those ships that you see in western movies without steam engine of course though,cant remember the name

[TMPikachu]

ih8eurocentrix, on Jan 27 2006, 03:35 PM, said:

Those ships that you see in western movies without steam engine of course though,cant remember the name

paddle boats.


another invention...
foot binding! ha ha...

yeah...

hmmm, I bet alot of foods were invented. It'd be cool to create a 'Chinese food evolutionary tree'...

[General_Zhaoyun]

Here are some of the inventions of China after 1500:

Ming dynasty

1. Medicine:

Li Shizen 李时珍(1518-93), a doctor in China, began to study assiduously medical books on chinese herbal medicine so as to compile "Compedium of Materia Medica" (CMM- 本草纲目). He finally completed this monumental work in 1578.

CMM comprised 52 volumes which contained 1892 kinds of medicine. Later, 374 kinds were added to the book. Scientific classifications was also carried out and over 1100 pictures were drawn. This book has raised China's materia medica research to a new phase and occupies an important position in the history of the development of medicine in the world.

2. Management of Agriculture:

Scientist Xu Guangqi 徐光启 got acquainted with Matteo Ricci, an italian priest of the Jesuits. With the co-operation of Matteo, Xu translated into chinese "The Origin of Geometry" written by Euclid, the first translated version of western mathematic book in chinese history.

Xu Guangqi's main achievement was "Management of Agriculture 农政全书" that he compiled. As a person with breath of vision in a feudal society, he asserted that agriculture was the foundation for strengthening and enriching China. The "Management of Agriculture" comprised 60 volumes and contained 500,000 words and owed its success to the collection of ancient agricultural knowledge.

3. "Tian Gong Kai Wu 天工开物" (China's agriculture and handicraft techniques):

Scientist Song Yingxing 宋应星 (1587-?) had written many books, of which "Tian Gong Kai Wu" had the greatest influence. This was an encyclopaedia-type scientific monumental work comprising 18 volumes with 123 drawings. This book summarised the achievements of China's ancient agriculture and handicraft techniques and reflected the level of society's development of production at that time.

4. Geography Science

Xu Hongzu 徐宏祖 (1586-1641), also known as Xu Xiake 徐霞客, carried out inspections and studies of geography in Yunnan, Guizhou, Sichuan and Guangdong. During his tour, he compiled and wrote a book titled "Travels of Xu Xiake 徐霞客游记". This was a geographical and scientific literature written in a clear and novel prose form. Xu Hongzu's method of carrying out on-the-spot survey and study of geography had ushered a new epoch on China's geography.


Qing dynasty

1. Medicine

Some medical work like "Yi Zong Jin Jian 医宗金鉴" edited by Wu Qian 吴谦, was a famous medical work during Qing dynasty. Containing 90 volumes, it was compiled into a book during Qianlong era and summarised the experiences of the clinical treaments of the various divisions of China's traditional medicine and contained important clinical records of chinese medicine.

2. Geographical mapping

During the early Qing period, the greatest achievement in map-drawing was one titled "the map of China 皇舆全览图", which was completed in 1718 after 10 years work. To draw this map, the world's most advanced theodolitic drawing method and ladder-shaped projection was adopted. The Map of China was the first national map drawn after carrying out on-the-spot survey in China.

3. Mathematics

Over 1000 kinds of mathematics book were written by about 500 men during Qing dynasty. The most famous mathematician was Mei Wending 梅文鼎(1633-1721). When Emperor Kangxi went on a tour in the south, he summoned Mei to this boat, where they studied and discussed mathematics for 3 days. "A Link between Chinese and Western Mathamtics 中西数学通", written by Mei, had reached the highest level in the study of mathematics in China at that time.

4. Irrigation Technology

Chen Huang 陈潢, an irrigation work experts, invented the scientific water-surveying method to calculate the rate of flow by using the velocity of flow of the water in the cross-section of a river. This greatly enriched China's hydraulic engineering. "Chen Huang's Flood Prevention Techniques 陈潢河防述言 " reflected the greatest success of Qing dynasty's hydraulic engineering.

There are other scientific invention in China, but many had been imported from the west after 1500 and improved upon in China.

[Tibet Libre]

General Zhaoyun,

most of these inventions are rather compilations of already existing knowledge, not innovations, although every new compilation should certainly have included some new knowledge. Other, notably mathematical achievements were made in so close a connection with the adaptation of Euopean mathematics that one can hardly speak of indigenous inventions. In the words of one leading scholar on Chinese Mathematics, Jean-Claude Martzloff, p.69:

Quote

Autochthonous attempts to renovate Chinese traditional astronomy proposed before and after the fall of the Ming dynasty always failed so that European mathematical and instrumental techniques supporting the reform were gradually assimilated to the detriment of Chinese traditional astronomy.

Beyond the narrow circle of technicians of astronomy, European astronomy was so much judged worth consideration that numerous authors developed the idea that the Chinese of antiquity had anticipated most of the novelties presented by the missionaries as European discoveries, for example, the rotundity of the earth and the “heavenly spherical star carrier model.”

Making skillful use of philology, these authors cleverly reinterpreted the greatest technical and literary works of Chinese antiquity. From this sprang a new science wholly dedicated to the demonstration of the Chinese origin of astronomy and more generally of all European science and technology.

Moreover, while this science of the origins of science grew deeper, the Chinese put their efforts into the difficult reconstruction of their ancient mathematical works lost or long forgotten but witnessing the greatness of past Chinese science and containing the seeds of a future scientific renaissance based on ancient Chinese knowledge. Even so, although declared Chinese in their origins, not all aspects of European mathematics and astronomy were approved unanimously...

http://www.uni-tuebingen.de/uni/ans/eastm/...4-martzloff.pdf

Making skillful use of philology, these authors cleverly reinterpreted the greatest technical and literary works of Chinese antiquity. From this sprang a new science wholly dedicated to the demonstration of the Chinese origin of astronomy and more generally of all European science and technology.

Sounds as if little has changed from then to Needham's times!

General_Zhaoyun, on Feb 5 2006, 10:33 AM, said:

2. Geographical mapping

During the early Qing period, the greatest achievement in map-drawing was one titled "the map of China 皇舆全览图", which was completed in 1718 after 10 years work. To draw this map, the world's most advanced theodolitic drawing method and ladder-shaped projection was adopted. The Map of China was the first national map drawn after carrying out on-the-spot survey in China.

Has this map survived?

[Tibet Libre]

Tibet Libre, on 06 October 2005 - 06:05 PM, said:

- Korea [1500s]: the first iron-clad ships

On close examination, the claim is inherently unlikely: No contemporary Korean source does in fact mention an iron-clad roof; Yi Sun-sin himself is silent too in his war diary and you would expect him as purported inventor to say something on this, wouldn't you?

Also, it is hard to see what advantages the Koreans could have gained from metal-plate protection: For fireproofing there were many much cheaper methods known and Japanese boarding teams would have faced the same difficulties with a wooden superstructure.

Last but not least, an iron-clad roof of several tons would have made the comparatively small ships probably too top heavy to be really seaworthy.

[WangGeon]

Tibet Libre, on 20 June 2010 - 06:03 AM, said:

On close examination, the claim is inherently unlikely: No contemporary Korean source does in fact mention an iron-clad roof; Yi Sun-sin himself is silent too in his war diary and you would expect him as purported inventor to say something on this, wouldn't you?

Also, it is hard to see what advantages the Koreans could have gained from metal-plate protection: For fireproofing there were many much cheaper methods known and Japanese boarding teams would have faced the same difficulties with a wooden superstructure.

Last but not least, an iron-clad roof of several tons would have made the comparatively small ships probably too top heavy to be really seaworthy.

Japanese sources, however, did mention that Tokugawa Ieyasu was sent a request to provide iron for Japanese ships in response to Korean ironclad warships. Western scholars do support the idea that Korea may have developed the first true ironclad warship, but it was not Yi Sunsin who developed it, which is likely why he didn't mention it; variants of Geobukseon have been available to Joseon since the earlier Joseon thus it was not a new idea.

Whether or not Korea had the "first" ironclad warship depends on how one defines an "ironclad warship"; Chinese warships had armored broadsides since the early Ming and Japanese likewise had the Tekkousen warship (although the Tekkousen was not entirely practical). If we're to say that the hull cover has to be iron-armored, then Geobukseon would be a prime candidate here. Also, the iron armor wasn't necessarily big thick heavy plates and I'm not really sure if a Geobukseon could be called "small."

This post has been edited by WangGeon: 21 June 2010 - 08:45 AM

[brightness]

Modern "ironclads" of the 19th century refers to a very specific type of ship that had armor thick enough to fend off contemporary naval gun shots. By extension, the ship also had to have steam power so that it would not become a mobility-kill when sails were shot away; some early ironclads had sails but those were not for tactical use and the ships would still be mobile on their steam engines if the sails were shot away. A sailing or rowing boat lacking steam engine would not be an "ironclad" even if it had some kind of armor because the sail and oars could not be protected by armor and the boat would be a mobility-kill hence not be nearly-immune to naval gun shots.

Adding metal or other cladding to ships had been common practice "invented" again and again throughout history. Vikings had shield protection for their long boats in the 9th century; Oda Nobunaga had iron clad ships during Japanese warring state period; etc. etc.

[WangGeon]

It goes back to the problem of how exactly do we use the term "ironclad." Earlier ships had armored broadsides but not a "shell." Whether or not we want to pin the term on a very specific thing is always debatable.

[Tibet Libre]

WangGeon, on 21 June 2010 - 08:35 AM, said:

Japanese sources, however, did mention that Tokugawa Ieyasu was sent a request to provide iron for Japanese ships in response to Korean ironclad warships...

Could you provide a quote? And why should we prefer Japanese sources over Koreans in this case?

WangGeon, on 21 June 2010 - 08:35 AM, said:

Western scholars do support the idea that Korea may have developed the first true ironclad warship

Which scholars? Samuel Hawley has pretty much dissected the idea in his otherwise Korean-centric book on the Seven Years War, and only his politeness towards a Korean national myth prevented him to outright shut the door open even for the theoretical possibility that these ships existed.

[Tibet Libre]

brightness, on 21 June 2010 - 04:09 PM, said:

Vikings had shield protection for their long boats in the 9th century; Oda Nobunaga had iron clad ships during Japanese warring state period; etc. etc.

Add the Santa Anna of the Knights Hospitaller, the Dutch Finis Bellis and the Galleon of Venice from the Battle of Preveza (1538) are further candidates, all of which precede the Turtle Ship. Yet the Korean' clamour is the loudest when it comes to the claim of having invented the ironclad. I wonder if this because they feel they have invented so little else?