[Eishin21]

Hi everyone, I was wondering if the Mandarin "L" sound has the Alveolar Flap. Also, how exactly is the "R" sound pronunced in Mandarin?
It couldn't have been in Middle Chinese, so where did this sound originate from.
I was also wondering if the "er" sound is native to Chinese or was it added by influence of foriegn languages?
One thing I know is that the "R" sound in Mandarin is pronunced similar to the "L" by Southern Dialect speakers. This is probably due to the "R" sound not existing outside of Mandarin.
Finally to all you Korean speakers, does the language feature an alveolar flap "l" or a different "R" sound?

This post has been edited by Eishin21: 08 October 2005 - 02:14 PM

[qrasy]

R- in Mandarin retro-Z, the 'hard' version of Sh.
This sound is heavy mutation from Middle Chinese, mostly from *ñ-. So, it comes from itself.
'Er' just happened because the 'i' in the *ñi is killed, but somehow it does not turn into 'ri'.
Mandarin R is often mispronounced English z, dz or r. The last one is quite similar to L, just the tongue is retroflex and do not touch the palate.

In many sources it's said that Korean usually speak flap R, like in many Korean songs I heard, but I have a Korean friend that pronounce Rieul as L.

This post has been edited by qrasy: 09 October 2005 - 01:30 AM

[nishishei]

Eishin21, on Oct 8 2005, 06:05 PM, said:

Hi everyone, I was wondering if the Mandarin "L" sound has the Alveolar Flap. Also, how exactly is the "R" sound pronunced in Mandarin?
It couldn't have been in Middle Chinese, so where did this sound originate from.
I was also wondering if the "er" sound is native to Chinese or was it added by influence of foriegn languages?
One thing I know is that the "R" sound in Mandarin is pronunced similar to the "L" by Southern Dialect speakers. This is probably due to the "R" sound not existing outside of Mandarin.
Finally to all you Korean speakers, does the language feature an alveolar flap "l" or a different "R" sound?

No, Mandarin L has no flap. Only Wu and Shanghainese dialects have some kind of alveolar flap (though they are lateral, hence: alveolar lateral flap). You can tell the difference by pronouncing Shanghainese 来 lei with Mandarin 来 lai. The tongue in the Shanghainese pronunciation flaps the hard plate of your mouth briefly, often making a "pop" sound too, and if pronounced quickly may even sound like a "d". Try it with 六 also.

The Mandarin R are words in Shanghainese that start with an English "z" or "gn" (ni), there is no flapping either. The Mandarin R is not really an [r] at all, and hence before Hanyu Pinyin, it was usually romanized as "j" [z\ z retroflex].

来, 六 are all flapped in Japanese and Korean. And there is no phonemic distinction of l or r in Korean.
Altaic languages shouldn't have an R (especially at word initial position), but both Korean and Japanese have this R, thus its origins come from Chinese borrowing, and most likely initially from the Chinese east coast. So it's hardly surprising to find Wu dialects today having the alveolar lateral flap for its L.

[qrasy]

nishishei, on Oct 10 2005, 05:00 AM, said:

No, Mandarin L has no flap. Only Wu and Shanghainese dialects have some kind of alveolar flap (though they are lateral, hence: alveolar lateral flap). You can tell the difference by pronouncing Shanghainese 来 lei with Mandarin 来 lai. The tongue in the Shanghainese pronunciation flaps the hard plate of your mouth briefly, often making a "pop" sound too, and if pronounced quickly may even sound like a "d". Try it with 六 also.

Yeah, that makes the 'L' different from normal Indonesian 'R'.

Quote

The Mandarin R are words in Shanghainese that start with an English "z" or "gn" (ni), there is no flapping either. The Mandarin R is not really an [r]at all, and hence before Hanyu Pinyin, it was usually romanized as "j" [z\ z retroflex].

Is 'z' reading a later borrowing to Wu? The 'inherited' reading of those words are 'gn-'.

Quote

来, 六 are all flapped in Japanese and Korean. And there is no phonemic distinction of l or r in Korean.
Altaic languages shouldn't have an R (especially at word initial position), but both Korean and Japanese have this R, thus its origins come from Chinese borrowing, and most likely initially from the Chinese east coast. So it's hardly surprising to find Wu dialects today having the alveolar lateral flap for its L.

There are 'R' in Altaic, but it's said not found in initial.
e.g. 'horse', Mongolian 'morin' Tungusic 'murin'.

This post has been edited by qrasy: 10 October 2005 - 01:28 AM