Jump to content


Photo
- - - - -

The 16 states/kingdoms of the Five Hu


  • Please log in to reply
31 replies to this topic

#1 Chinaconqueror

Chinaconqueror

    Provincial Governor (Cishi 刺史)

  • Magistrate (EP)
  • 30 posts
  • Main Interest in CHF:
    Chinese History

Posted 21 August 2004 - 01:49 AM

Can someone tell me more about the 16 kingdom's history? Were they all non-chinese kingdoms? Which kingdom was the most militarily strong?

#2 Tyler

Tyler

    Prime Minister (Situ/Chengxiang 司徒/丞相)

  • CHF Beginner
  • 1,886 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Interests:My interests are very common to most young people. I love meeting new people and hanging with friends. I always have had a interest and expertise in Computer Networking but I also enjoy the great out doors; swimming, camping, hiking, biking are great ways to pass the time.
  • Main Interest in CHF:
    Other Interests
  • Specialisation / Expertise:
    Networking

Posted 21 August 2004 - 01:58 AM

I do not know much abuot this era at all isn't it after the Three Kingdoms Era and during the time of the Jin Empire.

#3 General_Zhaoyun

General_Zhaoyun

    Grand Valiant General of Imperial Han Army

  • Admin
  • 12,051 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Singapore (Taiwanese/Singapore Permanent Resident)
  • Interests:Chinese History, Chinese Philosophy and Religion, Chinese languages, Minnan/Taiwanese language, Classical Chinese, General Chinese Culture
  • Languages spoken:Mandarin, Taiwanese (Hokkien), English, German, Singlish
  • Ethnic Groups or Race:Han Chinese (Taiwanese Hoklo)
  • Main Interest in CHF:
    General Chinese Culture
  • Specialisation / Expertise:
    Chinese Language, History and Culture

Posted 21 August 2004 - 09:48 AM

Well.. after the 3 kingdoms, basically western Jin dynasty unified the whole of China. But Western Jin was short-lived.. it suffered both from internal conflict (the wars of the 8 princes from 291 - 311 AD) as well as foreign conflict (invasion from the north by nomads such as XiongNu, Xianbei, Di, Qiang, Jie, who were known as the 5 "hu" people of the north).

The foreign invasion of the north allowed these nomads to establish their own kingdoms in the north. Until 317 AD, the last emperor of Western Jin was killed by XiongNu and Western Jin dynasty came to an end.

After western Jin dynasty collapsed, part of the family of the Sima, Sima Rui 司马睿 established a regime at Jianye (today's Nanjing city) and re-established the Jin dynasty called eastern Jin. They basically occupied the south of China.

In the north, it was a turbulent period, northern barbarian nomads such as Xiong Nu, Xianbei, Qiang, Di, Jie as well as other han-chinese established several kingdoms, known as the "16 kingdoms of the 5 hu" 五胡十六国. Actually, there were not just 5 "hu" people, and there were not just 16 kingdoms (there were more). These kingdom's existence lasted for 70 years for the longer period, and some only lasted not more than 10 years for the short period. There were incessant warfare going on between these kingdoms, each fighting to dominate and conquer China.

From the first kingdom "Previous Zhao" established by XiongNu in 304 AD till the last kingdom Northern Liang (established by XiongNu) in 439 AD, the 16 kingdoms lasted for a period of 136 years. These kingdoms not only fight to dominate north China, some even tried to invade the southern Eastern Jin in order to unify China.

I'm not well-informed about these warfare, perhaps, Yun can tell us more about these warfare.. summarise them to let us know who conquer who.. and so on.

Edited by Yun, 27 December 2005 - 09:57 PM.

Posted ImagePosted Image

"夫君子之行:靜以修身,儉以養德;非淡泊無以明志,非寧靜無以致遠。" - 諸葛亮

One should seek serenity to cultivate the body, thriftiness to cultivate the morals. If you are not simple and frugal, your ambition will not sparkle. If you are not calm and cool, you will not reach far. - Zhugeliang

#4 Yun

Yun

    Sage-King

  • CHF Han Lin Scholar
  • 9,057 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Singapore/USA
  • Interests:Ancient Chinese history, with a focus on the Age of Fragmentation. Chinese ethnicities, religion, philosophy, music, and art and material culture. Military history in general.
  • Main Interest in CHF:
    Chinese History
  • Specialisation / Expertise:
    Three Kingdoms, Age of Fragmentation, Sui-Tang

Posted 28 December 2005 - 10:59 AM

I just realised that I never got down to answering this question. Anyone want to help list the 16 States/Kingdoms, including their ruling family, rulers, year of founding and year of demise, and ethnicity of rulers? If Chinese characters are included, that would be a plus.

I will then step in to provide additional comments.
The dead have passed beyond our power to honour or dishonour them, but not beyond our ability to try and understand.

#5 snowybeagle

snowybeagle

    Sentinel of the Southern Star (鎮南星)

  • CHF Han Lin Scholar
  • 5,197 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Singapore
  • Main Interest in CHF:
    Chinese History

Posted 30 December 2005 - 02:09 AM

I just realised that I never got down to answering this question. Anyone want to help list the 16 States/Kingdoms, including their ruling family, rulers, year of founding and year of demise, and ethnicity of rulers? If Chinese characters are included, that would be a plus.
I will then step in to provide additional comments.

Just to make up for my absence ...

But 16 is quite a bit, I might not be able to finish in one post.
Other forummers are free to continue using the references from 十六国.

01. 成漢/成汉 (前蜀) Chéng Hàn (Former Shŭ, AD 304-347)
Ethnicity of rulers : Dī (氐)
Founder : Lĭ Xióng (李雄) for Chéng, his cousin Lĭ Shòu (李壽/李寿) renamed it to Hàn in AD 338.
Capital : ChengDu (in Sichuan Province, China)
Demise : Conquered by Huán Wēn (桓溫/桓温), a general of Eastern Jin (东晋)
Note : Since the rulers were from the same family, historians consider this the same kingdom and merged the names of the dynasties.

02. 漢趙/汉赵, 前趙/前赵 Hàn Zhào or Former Zhào, AD 304-329
Ethnicity of rulers : XiōngNú (匈奴)
Founder : Liú Yuān (劉淵/刘渊) for Hàn , his nephew Liú Yào (劉曜) for Zhào.
Capitals : ZuŏGuó Chéng (左国城), and then it was moved to PíngYáng (平阳)
Demise : Destroyed by Shí Lè (石勒) of Later Zhào (后赵)
Note : Since the rulers were from the same family, historians consider this the same kingdom and merged the names of the dynasties. This was the dynasty which ended Western Jin (西晋).

03. 後趙/后赵 Later Zhào AD 319-351
Ethnicity of rulers : Jié (羯)
Founder : Shí Lè (石勒)
Capital : XiāngGuó (襄国), present day XingTai in Hebei Province (今河北邢台)
Demise : By Răn Mĭn (冉闵) who founded the short-lived (2 years) dynasty historically known as Răn Wèi (冉魏) - not one of the Sixteen Kingdoms. However, Răn Mĭn embarked on a genocide of the ethnic Jié people in his territories.

04. 前燕 Former Yān, AD 337-370
Ethnicity of rulers : XiānBēi (鲜卑)
Founder : Mùróng Huăng (慕容皝)
Capitals : LóngChéng (龙城), present day ChaoYang in LiaoNing province (今遼寧省朝陽市), moved in AD 352 by Mùróng Jùn (慕容儁) it to Jì (薊/蓟), AD 357 shifted to Yè (鄴/邺).
Demise : Destroyed by Former Qín (前秦).

05. 前秦 Former Qín AD 350-394
Ethnicity of rulers : Dī (氐)
Founder : Fú Hóng (苻洪)
Capitals : Chang'An (长安)
Demise : Destroyed by Later Qín (后秦)
Note : This was the dynasty which suffered the disastrous defeat at the Battle of FeiShui (淝水之战) in AD 382.

06. 前凉 Former Liáng, AD 345-376
Ethnicity of rulers : Hàn (汉)
Founder : Zhāng Jùn (张骏)
Capital : GūZāng (姑臧), present day WuWei in GanSu Province (今甘肃武威).
Demise : Destroyed by Former Qín (前秦).
Note : Zhāng Jùn was the grandson of Zhāng Guĭ (张轨) who was appointed as Tribune of LiángZhōu (凉州刺史) by the Imperial Court of Western Jin in AD 301. Zhāng Jùn's father Zhāng Shí (张寔) succeeded the appointment at Zhāng Guĭ's death in AD 314. The family became de facto rulers of LiángZhōu after the fall of Western Jin regime.

07. 後燕/后燕 Later Yān, AD 384-409
Ethnicity of rulers : XiānBēi (鲜卑)
Founder : Mùróng Chuí (慕容垂)
Capital : ZhongShan (中山), present day DingZhou in HeBei province (今河北省定州).
Demise : Either by Gāo Yún (高云) who usurped the throne in AD 407 or Féng Bá (馮跋) in AD 409. Succeeded by Northern Yān.
Notes : This kingdom was created by one of the successful attempts of the subjugated tribes to throw off the rule of the Former Qín after the Battle of FeiShui.

08. 後秦/后秦 Later Qín, AD 384-417
Ethnicity of rulers : Qiāng (羌)
Founder : Yáo Cháng (姚苌)
Capital : ChangAn (长安)
Demise : Destroyed by Eastern Jin (东晋)
Notes : Established by a minority tribe uprising against Former Qín after the Battle of FeiShui.

[That's all I have time for today. Others in the list 西秦、后凉、南燕、南凉、北凉、西凉、夏 and 北燕]

Edited by snowybeagle, 30 December 2005 - 11:49 AM.


#6 jiangji

jiangji

    Chief State Secretary (Shangshu Ling 尚书令)

  • CHF Grand Historian Award
  • 902 posts

Posted 30 December 2005 - 02:36 AM

Thanks snowy for the information. I always get confused with these kingdom
Detach from emotions and desires; get rid of any fixations.

#7 Yun

Yun

    Sage-King

  • CHF Han Lin Scholar
  • 9,057 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Singapore/USA
  • Interests:Ancient Chinese history, with a focus on the Age of Fragmentation. Chinese ethnicities, religion, philosophy, music, and art and material culture. Military history in general.
  • Main Interest in CHF:
    Chinese History
  • Specialisation / Expertise:
    Three Kingdoms, Age of Fragmentation, Sui-Tang

Posted 30 December 2005 - 09:01 AM

My comments or corrections in red:

01. 成漢/成汉 (前蜀) Chéng Hàn (Former Shŭ, AD 304-347)
Ethnicity of rulers : Dī (氐)
They were called Badi 巴氐 because Cao Cao had moved them from Ba prefecture 巴郡 in Hanzhong to the region of Chang'an during the war against Liu Bei, and thereafter they lived among the Di. Many scholars now identify them with the Ba 巴 people or the Cong 賨 people of Sichuan, and not with the Di.
Founder : Lĭ Xióng (李雄) for Chéng, his cousin Lĭ Shòu (李壽/李寿) renamed it to Hàn in AD 338.
In 301 Li Te 李特, the leader of a group of Badi refugees who went south into Sichuan because of famine, rebelled against the Western Jin governor there. Li Te was killed in battle and succeeded by his son Li Xiong, who defeated the governor and founded a kingdom. Li Shou was an usurper who took the throne from Li Xiong's son.
Capital : ChengDu (in Sichuan Province, China)
Demise : Conquered by Huán Wēn (桓溫/桓温), a general of Eastern Jin (东晋)
Note : Since the rulers were from the same family, historians consider this the same kingdom and merged the names of the dynasties.
The only book dealing with this state and its Celestial Masters Daoist state religion is Terry Kleeman's "Great Perfection". Great Perfection is the translation of the state's original name of Da Cheng 大成.

02. 漢趙/汉赵, 前趙/前赵 Hàn Zhào or Former Zhào, AD 304-329
Ethnicity of rulers : XiōngNú (匈奴)
Founder : Liú Yuān (劉淵/刘渊) for Hàn , his nephew Liú Yào (劉曜) for Zhào.
Capital : LuoYang (洛阳)
Wrong - the first capital was at Zuoguo Cheng 左国城, and then it was moved to Pingyang 平阳 (both are in Shanxi). Luoyang was captured in 311 but was not made the capital. Liu Yao shifted the capital to Chang'an 长安 in 318.
Demise : Destroyed by Shí Lè (石勒) of Later Zhào (后赵)
Note : Since the rulers were from the same family, historians consider this the same kingdom and merged the names of the dynasties. This was the dynasty which ended Western Jin (西晋).
The only book to cover the rise of this dynasty so far is David B. Honey's PhD thesis "The Rise of the Medieval Hsiung-nu", which analyses the life of Liu Yuan. Liu Yao became emperor after a disastrous coup by the courtier Jin Zhun 靳准 annihilated the Han imperial clan in Pingyang, but spared him because he was garrisoning Chang'an. He marched on Pingyang and destroyed Jin Zhun, but renamed the state as Zhao because he had previously been the Prince of Zhongshan 中山, an area associated with the Warring State of Zhao. Historians call Liu Yao's Zhao state the Former Zhao to distinguish it from his rival Shi Le's kingdom, which was also called Zhao. Naturally, Shi Le's kingdom is called Later Zhao by historians, even though it was founded only slightly later than Liu Yao's renaming of the Han dynasty as Zhao.

03. 後趙/后赵 Later Zhào AD 319-351
Ethnicity of rulers : Jié (羯)
Founder : Shí Lè (石勒)
Capital : XiāngGuó (襄国), present day XingTai in Hebei Province (今河北邢台)
Shi Hu 石虎, Shi Le's nephew, moved the capital to Ye 邺 after he usurped the throne from Shi Le's son.
Demise : By Răn Mĭn (冉闵) who founded the short-lived (2 years) dynasty historically known as Răn Wèi (冉魏) - not one of the Sixteen Kingdoms. However, Răn Mĭn embarked on a genocide of the ethnic Jié people in his territories.
The Murong Xianbei (Former Yan) invaded and destroyed Ran Min's kingdom. The Ran-Wei is excluded from the 16 Kingdoms because of its brief existence, which is not actually such a good reason. David B. Honey has also written some articles about Shi Le. Shi Le was an important general serving the Han Zhao, but revolted against Liu Yao and took the rivalry to the extent of adopting the same state name as Liu Yao's.

04. 前燕 Former Yān, AD 337-370
Ethnicity of rulers : XiānBēi (鲜卑)
Founder : Mùróng Huăng (慕容皝)
Capitals : LóngChéng (龙城), present day ChaoYang in LiaoNing province (今遼寧省朝陽市), moved in AD 352 by Mùróng Jùn (慕容儁) it to Jì (薊/蓟), AD 357 shifted to Yè (鄴/邺).
Demise : Destroyed by Former Qín (前秦).
Kenneth Klein has written a PhD thesis "The Contribution of the 4th-century Xianbei states to the reunification of the Chinese empire", dealing with the Former Yan and Later Yan. The dynasty called itself Yan, but historians call it Former Yan to distinguish it from the Later Yan, Western Yan and Southern Yan states later founded by the Murong Xianbei, and also the Northern Yan founded by the Korean Gao Yun.

05. 前秦 Former Qín AD 350-394
Ethnicity of rulers : Dī (氐)
Founder : Fú Hóng (苻洪)
Capitals : Chang'An (长安)
After Fu Jian 苻坚 was killed by Yao Chang in 385, his son Fu Pi 苻丕 assumed the throne at Jinyang 晋阳 in Shanxi, but in 386 he was first badly defeated by the Western Yan and then captured and killed by the Eastern Jin general Feng Gai 冯该. Then, an imperial clansman named Fu Deng carried out nine years of resistance (386-394) against the Later Qin from a new capital at Nan'an 南安. Fu Deng's son Fu Chong 苻崇 carried on the fight at Huangzhong 湟中 (Qinghai), but was soon killed by the Western Qin 西秦 state.
Demise : Destroyed by Later Qín (后秦)
Western Qin 西秦 delivered the coup de grace, if you count Fu Chong.
Note : This was the dynasty which suffered the disastrous defeat at the Battle of FeiShui (淝水之战) in AD 382.
The dynasty called itself Qin, but historians call it Former Qin to distinguish it from the Qin state founded by Yao Chang after his rebellion against Fu Jian. The Former Qin was founded by Fu Hong, a general of the Later Zhao who rebelled during its fall. He was soon assassinated, but his son led his followers west to their original homeland in Chang'an, captured it, and made it the capital. Michael Rogers has written "The Chronicle of Fu Jian: A Case of Exemplar History", analysing the rise and fall of the Former Qin and arguing controversially that the Battle of Feishui never took place and was essentially made up by Eastern Jin and Tang historians.

06. 前凉 Former Liáng, AD 345-376
Ethnicity of rulers : Hàn (汉)
Founder : Zhāng Jùn (张骏)
Capital : GūZāng (姑臧), present day WuWei in GanSu Province (今甘肃武威).
Demise : Destroyed by Former Qín (前秦).
Note : Zhāng Jùn was the grandson of Zhāng Guĭ (张轨) who was appointed as Tribune of LiángZhōu (凉州刺史) by the Imperial Court of Western Jin in AD 301. Zhāng Jùn's father Zhāng Shí (张寔) succeeded the appointment at Zhāng Guĭ's death in AD 314. The family became de facto rulers of LiángZhōu after the fall of Western Jin regime.
Many scholars date the founding of the Former Liang to Zhang Gui or Zhang Shi, and not Zhang Jun. The state pledged nominal allegiance to the Eastern Jin dynasty, but its rulers behaved like independent kings in reality. They called themselves Dukes of Xiping 西平公, not kings or emperors, although some had ambitions of formally declaring themselves kings. Historians call the state Former Liang to distinguish it from 4 later states founded in this area and also known historically as Liang: Later Liang, Northern Liang, Southern Liang and Western Liang.

07. 後燕/后燕 Later Yān, AD 384-409
Ethnicity of rulers : XiānBēi (鲜卑)
Founder : Mùróng Chuí (慕容垂)
Capital : ZhongShan (中山), present day DingZhou in HeBei province (今河北省定州).
The Tuoba Xianbei's Northern Wei state invaded the Later Yan in 396, and drove the Yan court north to Longcheng, the first capital of the Former Yan. The Later Yan's demise by usurpation took place at Longcheng.
Demise : Either by Gāo Yún (高云) who usurped the throne in AD 407 or Féng Bá (馮跋) in AD 409. Succeeded by Northern Yān.
Notes : This kingdom was created by one of the successful attempts of the subjugated tribes to throw off the rule of the Former Qín after the Battle of FeiShui.
Historians disagree on whether Gao Yun's usurpation was the end of the Later Yan and the beginning of the Northern Yan, or Feng Ba's usurpation of Gao Yun's throne was more important. This is because Gao Yun was a Korean (Koguryo) native who had been adopted into the Murong clan, and was thus technically a Murong even though he reverted his surname to Gao after his usurpation.
Murong Chui rebelled against the Former Qin in Hebei, but at Chang'an another branch of the Murong also rebelled and founded a state known to historians as the Western Yan. The Western Yan soon pulled out of Chang'an and migrated to Shanxi, where it engaged in rivalry and warfare with the Later Yan and was finally destroyed by the latter. The Western Yan is not included among the 16 Kingdoms; I will profile it in a later post.

08. 後秦/后秦 Later Qín, AD 384-417
Ethnicity of rulers : Qiāng (羌)
Founder : Yáo Cháng (姚苌)
Capital : ChangAn (长安)
Demise : Destroyed by Eastern Jin (东晋)
A northern expedition by the Eastern Jin general Liu Yu 刘裕, who later usurped the Jin throne and founded the Liu-Song dynasty.
Notes : Established by a minority tribe uprising against Former Qín after the Battle of FeiShui.
Yao Chang's father Yao Yizhong 姚弋仲 had served the Later Zhao; his brother Yao Xiang 姚襄 had defected to the Eastern Jin during the fall of the Later Zhao but later rebelled against the Eastern Jin, struck out on his own and attacked the Former Qin. Yao Xiang was captured and killed, and Yao Chang surrendered to the Former Qin with the remainder of Yao Xiang's followers. After the Battle of Feishui (Fei River), Yao Chang remained loyal to Fu Jian but rebelled when Fu Jian threatened to execute him for failing to suppress the rebellion of the Western Yan at Chang'an. Yao later captured and killed Fu Jian, and added to the irony by naming his state Qin as well - leading historians to distinguish them as Former and Later Qin.

Edited by Yun, 02 January 2006 - 07:12 AM.

The dead have passed beyond our power to honour or dishonour them, but not beyond our ability to try and understand.

#8 Yun

Yun

    Sage-King

  • CHF Han Lin Scholar
  • 9,057 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Singapore/USA
  • Interests:Ancient Chinese history, with a focus on the Age of Fragmentation. Chinese ethnicities, religion, philosophy, music, and art and material culture. Military history in general.
  • Main Interest in CHF:
    Chinese History
  • Specialisation / Expertise:
    Three Kingdoms, Age of Fragmentation, Sui-Tang

Posted 30 December 2005 - 09:40 AM

Who would like to carry on Snowybeagle's excellent work? I promise to add in anything that's left out, or correct any errors.

8 states left: Western Qin 西秦、 Later Liang 后凉、Southern Yan 南燕、Southern Liang 南凉、Northern Liang 北凉、Western Liang 西凉、Xia 夏 and Northern Yan 北燕.

5 other states (outside the 16) that I will profile after that: Ran-Wei 冉魏, Western Yan 西燕, Di-Wei 翟魏, Chouchi 仇池, and Western Shu 西蜀.
The dead have passed beyond our power to honour or dishonour them, but not beyond our ability to try and understand.

#9 xu huang

xu huang

    Grand Mentor (Taishi 太师)

  • CHF Grand Historian Award
  • 422 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Right Next Door And Below Hell....
  • Interests:Sleep....
  • Main Interest in CHF:
    Chinese History
  • Specialisation / Expertise:
    Eh...None...I'm no expert...

Posted 30 December 2005 - 10:56 AM

Who would like to carry on Snowybeagle's excellent work? I promise to add in anything that's left out, or correct any errors.

8 states left: Western Qin 西秦、 Later Liang 后凉、Southern Yan 南燕、Southern Liang 南凉、Northern Liang 北凉、Western Liang 西凉、Xia 夏 and Northern Yan 北燕.

5 other states (outside the 16) that I will profile after that: Ran-Wei 冉魏, Western Yan 西燕, Di-Wei 翟魏, Chouchi 仇池, and Western Shu 西蜀.



I will add in the rulers and their reigning years during the weekend........ok?
有音乐就没有世界末日
生命不在乎得到什么,只在乎做过什么

#10 snowybeagle

snowybeagle

    Sentinel of the Southern Star (鎮南星)

  • CHF Han Lin Scholar
  • 5,197 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Singapore
  • Main Interest in CHF:
    Chinese History

Posted 30 December 2005 - 12:03 PM

They were called Badi 巴氐 because Cao Cao had moved them from Ba prefecture 巴郡 in Hanzhong to the region of Chang'an during the war against Liu Bei, and thereafter they lived among the Di. Many scholars now identify them with the Ba 巴 people or the Cong 賨 people of Sichuan, and not with the Di.

I left out the 巴 because it was the name of the region they settled in.
But why do scholars doubt their Di ethnicity?

Wrong - the first capital was at Zuoguo Cheng 左国城, and then it was moved to Pingyang 平阳 (both are in Shanxi). Luoyang was captured in 311 but was not made the capital. Liu Yao shifted the capital to Chang'an 长安 in 318.

Thanks, I made the correction.

Many scholars date the founding of the Former Liang to Zhang Gui or Zhang Shi, and not Zhang Jun. The state pledged nominal allegiance to the Eastern Jin dynasty, but its rulers behaved like independent kings in reality. They called themselves Dukes of Liang, not kings or emperors. Historians call the state Former Liang to distinguish it from 4 later states founded in this area and also known historically as Liang: Later Liang, Northern Liang, Southern Liang and Western Liang.

I just checked 十六国春秋:卷七, it said "三年,刘曜遣鸿胪拜茂太师、凉王。" which seemed to imply that Zhāng Shí was conferred the title of 王 by Liú Yào.

But it is rather confusing as later, it also stated "八年,群僚劝骏称凉王,置百官。骏曰:“此非人臣所言,敢有此言,罪在不赦。”"

#11 Yun

Yun

    Sage-King

  • CHF Han Lin Scholar
  • 9,057 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Singapore/USA
  • Interests:Ancient Chinese history, with a focus on the Age of Fragmentation. Chinese ethnicities, religion, philosophy, music, and art and material culture. Military history in general.
  • Main Interest in CHF:
    Chinese History
  • Specialisation / Expertise:
    Three Kingdoms, Age of Fragmentation, Sui-Tang

Posted 30 December 2005 - 09:11 PM

But why do scholars doubt their Di ethnicity?

Mainly because there are discrepancies in the sources on whether the Li were Di 氐 or Ba 巴/Cong 賨. Indeed there are also those who argue that there is no real difference between 氐 and 巴/賨 (or the alternate name Sou 叟 for 賨), that 氐 is just the name for those who went further north. I'll check further and get back to you.

I just checked 十六国春秋:卷七, it said "三年,刘曜遣鸿胪拜茂太师、凉王。" which seemed to imply that Zhāng Shí was conferred the title of 王 by Liú Yào.

But it is rather confusing as later, it also stated "八年,群僚劝骏称凉王,置百官。骏曰:“此非人臣所言,敢有此言,罪在不赦。”"


Yes, they were playing quite a double game. When the Former Zhao, Later Zhao and Former Qin were strong, they had no choice but to submit as vassals and accept the title of 王 (prince), but they hid this from the Eastern Jin and continued to claim to be Dukes of the Eastern Jin. After all, the 'barbarians' were close by but the Eastern Jin emperor was far away in Nanjing.
The dead have passed beyond our power to honour or dishonour them, but not beyond our ability to try and understand.

#12 esse

esse

    Grand Mentor (Taishi 太师)

  • Master Scholar (Juren)
  • 419 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:San Diego, CA
  • Interests:reading, movies, rock&roll, finearts.
  • Main Interest in CHF:
    Chinese History

Posted 30 December 2005 - 09:25 PM

Also check out Schreiber, Gerhard. "The history of the Former Yen dynasty (285-370)," Monumenta Serica 14 (1949-55):374-480 and 15 (1956):1-141, IMO the most comprehensive translation on Former Yan in English.
"When all you've got is a hammer, everything looks like a nail".

#13 xu huang

xu huang

    Grand Mentor (Taishi 太师)

  • CHF Grand Historian Award
  • 422 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Right Next Door And Below Hell....
  • Interests:Sleep....
  • Main Interest in CHF:
    Chinese History
  • Specialisation / Expertise:
    Eh...None...I'm no expert...

Posted 01 January 2006 - 05:14 AM

仇池(Qiu-Chi)(氐族- Di ethnicity) - Destroyed by Northern Wei
姓名 谥号/庙号
Name Posthumous Name/Temple Name Reign


杨茂搜 Yang Maosou 296-316
杨难敌 Yang Nandi 317-333
杨毅 Yang Yi 334-336
杨初 Yang Chu 337-354
杨国 Yang Guo 355
杨俊 Yang Jun 356-359
杨世 Yang Shi 360-369
杨纂(德) Yang Zuan (De) 370-371
杨定 Yang Ding 武王(King Wu) 385-393
杨盛 Yang Sheng 惠文王(King Huiwen) 394-424
杨玄 Yang Xuan 孝昭王(King Xiaozhao) 425-429
杨难当 Yang Nandang 忠王(King Zhong) 430-441
杨保炽 Yang Baochi 442
杨保宗 Yang Baozong 443
杨文德 Yang Wende 443-454
杨元和 Yang Yuanhe 455-466
杨僧嗣 Yang Sengsi 467-472
杨文度 Yang Wendu 473-477
杨文弘 Yang Wenhong 478-481
杨后起 Yang Houqi 482-485
杨集始 Yang Jishi 安王(King An) 486-502
杨绍先 Yang Shaoxian 503-506


前蜀(Former Shu)/成汉(Cheng Han)(巴/氐族 - Ba/Di ethnicity) - Destroyed by Eastern Jin
姓名 谥号/庙号
Name Posthumous Name/Temple Name Reign


成(Cheng)

李雄 Li Xiong 武皇帝(Emperor Wu)/太宗(Taizong) 303-334
李班 Li Ban 哀皇帝(Emperor Ai) 334
李期 Li Qi (废帝-幽公) (Deposed Emperor/Duke You) 335-338

汉(Han)

李寿 Li Shou 昭文皇帝(Emperor Zhaowen)/中宗(Zhongzong) 338-343
李势 Li Shi 后主 (Last emperor) 344-347



前赵(Former Zhao)/赵汉(Zhao Han)(匈奴族 - Xiongnu ethnicity) - Destroyed by Later Zhao
姓名 谥号/庙号
Name Posthumous Name/Temple Name Reign


汉(Han)

刘渊(元海) Liu Yuan (Yuanhai) 光文皇帝(Emperor Guangwen)/高主(Gaozu) 304-310
刘和 Liu He 310
刘聪(载) Liu Cong (Zai) 昭武皇帝 (Emperor Zhaowu)/烈宗(Liezong) 310-318
刘粲 Liu Can 隐皇帝(Emperor Yin)/少主 (Shaozhu, 'Young Emperor') 318

赵(Zhao)

刘曜 Liu Yao 赵主 (Zhao Emperor) 318-328
刘熙 Liu Xi 皇太子(Crown Prince) 329


代(Dai)(鲜卑族 - Xianbei ethnicity) - Destroyed by Former Qin
姓名 谥号/庙号
Name Posthumous Name/Temple Name Reign


拓跋猗庐 Tuoba Yilu 穆皇帝(Emperor Mu) 307-315
拓跋鬱律 Tuoba Yulu 平文皇帝(Emperor Pingwen)/太祖(Taizhu) 316-320
拓跋贺溽 Tuoba Heru 惠皇帝(Emperor Hui) 321-324
拓跋讫那 Tuoba Qina 炀皇帝(Emperor Yang) 325-329
拓跋翳槐 Tuoba Yihuai 烈皇帝(Emperor Lie) 329-335
拓跋纥那 Tuoba Hena 炀皇帝(Emperor Yang) 335-337
拓跋翳槐 Tuoba Yihuai 烈皇帝(Emperor Lie) 337
拓跋什翼犍Tuoba Shiyijian 昭成皇帝(Emperor Zhaocheng)/高祖(Gaozu) 338-376


前燕(Former Yan)(鲜卑族 - Xianbei ethnicity) - Destroyed by Former Qin
姓名 谥号/庙号
Name Posthumous Name/Temple Name Reign


慕容廆 Murong Wei 武宣皇帝(Emperor Wuxuan) 321-334
慕容皝 Murong Huang 文明皇帝(Emperor Wenming) 334-349
慕容儁 Murong Jun 景昭皇帝(Emperor Jingzhao)/烈祖(Liezu) 349-360
慕容暐 Murong Wei 幽皇帝 (Emperor You) 360-370

Edited by Yun, 07 January 2006 - 11:41 AM.

有音乐就没有世界末日
生命不在乎得到什么,只在乎做过什么

#14 qrasy

qrasy

    Emperor (Huangdi 皇帝)

  • CHF Han Lin Scholar
  • 4,613 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Interests:Physics, Chemistry, Maths, Biology, Languages, Ethnicity, History, etc.
  • Languages spoken:Mandarin Chinese, Indonesian, English, Cantonese
  • Ethnic Groups or Race:Han Chinese (Southeastern)
  • Main Interest in CHF:
    Other Interests
  • Specialisation / Expertise:
    Chinese Linguistics

Posted 01 January 2006 - 07:30 AM

仇 in 仇池 is read Qiú (like in surname), not Chóu.

It's also a mountain, where a pool(?) called 仇池 Qiú Chí exists. Also a name of 郡.
(from Cihai)

Edited by qrasy, 01 January 2006 - 07:36 AM.

The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie—deliberate, contrived and dishonest, but the myth, persistent, persuasive, and unrealistic. Belief in myths allows the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought. - JFK


#15 xu huang

xu huang

    Grand Mentor (Taishi 太师)

  • CHF Grand Historian Award
  • 422 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Right Next Door And Below Hell....
  • Interests:Sleep....
  • Main Interest in CHF:
    Chinese History
  • Specialisation / Expertise:
    Eh...None...I'm no expert...

Posted 01 January 2006 - 07:39 AM

仇 in 仇池 is read Qiú (like in surname), not Chóu.

It's also a mountain, where a pool(?) called 仇池 Qiú Chí exists. Also a name of 郡.
(from Cihai)



Yes...I had wanted to ask the correct pronounciation when I was doing it, but forgot all about it later. Thanks !
有音乐就没有世界末日
生命不在乎得到什么,只在乎做过什么




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users