[Yun]

I notice that Xu Huang is going in chronological order, which means he has already covered the states of Chouchi 仇池 and Dai 代, both of which are not included in the 16 Kingdoms but actually should be because they are among the earliest autonomous/independent states founded on the borders of the Western Jin.

Qrasy, I have been trying for a long time to determine whether 仇池 should be Chouchi or Qiuchi, but the sources I have found all indicate 'Chouchi' - including the Wikipedia article
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chouchi

Could you tell me which source gave you the pronunciation Qiuchi?

Judging from the Wiki article's list and the Chinese version of the Wiki article ( http://zh.wikipedia.....BE.E9.A1.B7.29 ), Xu Huang's list is still incomplete. There were four rulers before Yang Maosou who were recognized posthumously, and one or two more kings after Yang Shaoxian (who revived his kingdom around 535, after having been captured by the Northern Wei in 506). There was also a rival Di kingdom of Yinping 阴平 from 477 to 580, ruled by another branch of the Yang family. The history of Chouchi is a long and very complex one, and I will try and summarise it sometime later on.

Dai is actually the first state founded by the Tuoba Xianbei. It was absorbed by the Former Qin, but restored as the Northern Wei, the first of the Northern Dynasties, in 386. The Chinese Wikipedia article also shows a long list of Tuoba rulers who were recognized posthumously by the Northern Wei, stretching back to 207 BC. There is much more myth than history in the records of these early rulers. Jennifer Holmgren's "The Annals of Tai" includes a translation of the Wei Shu chapters dealing with these semi-mythical rulers. The name Dai itself originated when Tuoba Yilu was enfeoffed as Duke of Dai 代公 by the Western Jin in 310 as a reward for helping Liu Kun 刘琨, the Governor of Bingzhou 并州, to fight the Xiongnu Han state. This fief was later raised from a duchy to a principality (i.e. Prince of Dai 代王).

I had originally contemplated leaving Dai out of this list, because it is arguably just the earlier part of the Northern Wei dynasty. But now I think it should be considered in the same light as the Former Yan and Later Yan being separate states, though they were ruled by the same family.

Note also that the word 'tribe' should not be used to refer to ethnic groups like the Xianbei, Di and Xiongnu. 'Tribe' connotes a small, loose and primitive social grouping, which these groups were not. I prefer the word 'ethnicity', and have edited Xu Huang's list accordingly.

I have also edited some other errors and style discrepancies (e.g. by Pinyin conventions it should be written Yang Maosou, not Yang Mao Sou) in Xu Huang's list.

This post has been edited by Yun: 02 January 2006 - 04:37 AM

[xu huang]

Thanks Yun.

Here comes another part...

后赵(Later Zhao)(羯族 - Jie ethnicity) - Destroyed by Ran-Wei
姓名 谥号/庙号
Name Posthumous Name/Temple Name Reign

石勒 Shi Le 明皇帝(Emperor Ming)/高祖(Gaozu) 319-333
石弘(大雅) Shi Hong 废帝(Deposed Emperor)/海阳王(Prince of Haiyang) 334
石虎(季龙) Shi Hu 武皇帝(Emperor Wu)/太祖(Taizu) 335-349
石世 Shi Shi 废帝(Deposed Emperor) 349
石遵 Shi Zun 彭城王 (Prince of Pengcheng) 349
石鉴 Shi Jian 义阳王 (Prince of Yiyang) 349
石祗 Shi Zhi 新兴王 (Prince of Xinxing) 350-351


冉魏(Ran-Wei)(汉族 - Han ethnicity) - Destroyed by Former Yan
姓名 谥号/庙号
Name Posthumous Name/Temple Name Reign

冉闵 Ran Min 武悼天王 (Heavenly King Wudao) 350-352
冉智 Ran Zhi 太子 (Crown Prince) 352


前凉(Former Liang)(汉族 - Han ethnicity) - Destroyed by Former Qin
姓名 谥号/庙号
Name Posthumous Name/Temple Name Reign

张寔 Zhang Shi 明王(King Ming/高祖(Gaozu) 314-319
张茂 Zhang Mao 成王(King Cheng)/太宗(Taizong) 320-323
张骏 Zhang Jun 文王(King Wen)/世祖(Shizu) 324-346
张重华 Zhang Chonghua 桓王(King Huan) 346-353
张灵曜 Zhang Lingyao 哀公(Duke Ai) 353
张祚 Zhang Zuo 威王 (King Wei) 354-355
张玄靓 Zhang Xuanliang 冲公(敬悼公) (Duke Chong/Duke Jingdao) 355-362
张天锡 Zhang Tianxi 悼公 (Duke Dao) 363-376


前秦(Former Qin)(氐族 - Di ethnicity) - Destroyed by Western Qin
姓名 谥号/庙号
Name Posthumous Name/Temple Name Reign

苻健 Fu Jian 明皇帝(Emperor Ming)/世宗(Shizong) 351-355
苻生 Fu Sheng 废帝(Deposed Emperor)/历王(King Li) 355-357
苻坚 Fu Jian 宣昭皇帝(Emperor Xuanzhao)/中宗(Zhongzong) 357-385
苻丕 Fu Pi 哀平皇帝(Emperor Aiping) 385-386
苻登 Fu Deng 高皇帝(Emperor Gao)/太宗(Taizong) 386-394
苻崇 Fu Chong 末帝 (Last Emperor) 394


后燕(Later Yan)(鲜卑族 - Xianbei ethnicity) - Usurped by Northern Yan
姓名 谥号/庙号
Name Posthumous Name/Temple Name Reign

慕容垂 Murong Chui 成武皇帝(Emperor Chengwu)/世祖(Shizu) 384-396
慕容宝 Murong Bao 惠愍皇帝(Emperor Huimin)/烈宗(Liezong) 396-398
慕容盛 Murong Sheng 昭武皇帝(Emperor Zhaowu)/中宗(Zhongzong) 398-401
慕容熙 Murong Xi 昭文皇帝(Emperor Zhaowen) 401-407
慕容云 Murong Yun 惠懿皇帝(Emperor Huiyi) 407-409
[Note: Murong Yun, or Gao Yun 高云, is often also considered as the first ruler of the Northern Yan because he was only an adopted member of the Murong family (his original ethnicity was Koguryo.]

西燕(Western Yan)(鲜卑族 - Xianbei ethnicity) - Destroyed by Later Yan
姓名 谥号/庙号
Name Posthumous Name/Temple Name Reign

慕容泓 Murong Hong 384
慕容冲 Murong Chong 威皇帝(Emperor Wei) 385-386
段随 Duan Sui 386
慕容顗 Murong Yi 386
慕容瑶 Murong Yao 386
慕容忠 Murong Zhong 386
慕容永 Murong Yong 386-394


To be continued....

This post has been edited by Yun: 02 January 2006 - 07:08 AM

[Yun]

Map of Cheng, Former Zhao, Later Zhao, Former Liang, Dai, and Former Yan (the Murong Xianbei, way up in the northeast), in AD 327:



Zhang Jun of the Former Liang was still known to the Eastern Jin as Duke of Xiping 西平公, but his father Zhang Mao had already received the title of King (or Prince) of Liang from the Former Zhao in 323. Murong Huang of the Former Yan, on the other hand, did not declare himself King of Yan 燕王 until 337; until then he held the title of Duke of Liaodong 辽东公 conferred by the Eastern Jin.

Map of Former Qin, Former Liang, Dai, and Former Yan in 366:



This map is wrong about Chouchi. In 347, Yang Chu, the king of Chouchi, had surrendered to the Eastern Jin following the Jin conquest of Cheng-Han in that year. He received the title of Duke of Chouchi from the Jin court. Thus in 366 Chouchi should be included in the territory of Eastern Jin and not Former Qin. However, in 371, the Former Qin attacked and conquered Chouchi. Chouchi then ceased to exist until Yang Ding took advantage of the collapse of the Former Qin to revive the kingdom in 385.

This post has been edited by Yun: 02 January 2006 - 07:18 AM

[somechineseperson]

From A History of Chinese Civilisation by Jacques Gernet, pg 187, the Sixteen Kingdoms with the ethnic and regional origin of their ruling classes, their respective dates, and by whom they were conquered:

1. Earlier Zhao/Han, Xiongnu from Shanxi, 304-329 AD, conquered by Later Zhao
2. Cheng Han, Di from Sichuan, 304-347 AD, conquered by Eastern Jin
3. Later Zhao, Jie from Hebei, 319-351 AD, conquered by Earlier Yan
4. Earlier Liang, Han Chinese from Gansu, 314-376 AD, conquered by Earlier Qin
5. Earlier Yan, Xianbei from Hebei, 349-370 AD, conquered by Earlier Qin
6. Earlier Qin, Di from Shaanxi, 351-394 AD, conquered by Western Qin
7. Later Yan, Xianbei from Hebei, 384-409 AD, conquered by Northern Yan
8. Later Qin, Qiang from Shaanxi, 384-417 AD, conquered by Eastern Jin
9. Western Qin, Xianbei from Gansu, 385-431 AD, conquered by Xia
10. Later Liang, Di from Gansu, 386-403 AD, conquered by Later Qin
11. Southern Liang, Xianbei from Gansu, 397-414 AD, conquered by Western Qin
12. Northern Liang, Xiongnu from Gansu, 401-439 AD, conquered by Northern Wei
13. Southern Yan, Xianbei from Shandong, 400-410 AD, conquered by Eastern Jin
14. Western Liang, Han Chinese from Gansu, 400-421 AD, conquered by Northern Liang
15. Xia, Xiongnu from Shaanxi, 407-431 AD, conquered by Northern Wei
16. Northern Yan, Han Chinese from Liaoning, 409-439 AD, conquered by Northern Wei

Of the sixteen kingdoms, three were ruled by Han Chinese, five by the Xianbei, three by the Xiongnu, three by the Di, one by the Jie and one by the Qiang.

[Yun]

There are some problems with Gernet's identifying the location of the state with the "regional origin" of its rulers:

The Xianbei founders of the Earlier/Former Yan and Later Yan were originally from Liaoning, even though they eventually ruled Hebei. The rulers of the Southern Yan in Shandong were from the same Liaoning clan.

Lu Guang, the Di founder of the Later Liang, was actually from Shaanxi, but had been sent into the Tarim Basin on a military campaign by the Former Qin. His return route was cut off by the collapse of the Former Qin empire, and he stayed in Gansu and founded his own kingdom.

The Xiongnu founder of the Xia, Liu (later Helian) Bobo, was from the Tiefu Xiongnu of Inner Mongolia, but fled into Ningxia (in the Ordos Loop) after his people were destroyed by the Northern Wei. In 413, he established a new capital at Tongwan, in northern Shaanxi. There is no reason to say that he was "from Shaanxi".

[xu huang]

后秦(Later Qin)(羌族 - Qiang ethnicity) - Destroyed by Eastern Jin
姓名 谥号/庙号
Name Posthumous Name/Temple Name Reign

姚苌 Yao Chang 武昭皇帝 (Emperor Wuzhao)/太祖(Taizu) 384-393
姚兴 Yao Xing 文桓皇帝 (Emperor Wenhuan)/高祖(Gaozu) 394-416
姚泓 Yao Hong 后主 (Last Emperor) 416-417

西秦(Western Qin)(鲜卑族 - Xianbei ethnicity) - Destroyed by Xia
姓名 谥号/庙号
Name Posthumous Name/Temple Name Reign

乞伏国仁 Qifu Guoren 宣烈王(King Xuanlie)/烈祖(Liezu) 385-388
乞伏乾归 Qifu Qiangui 武元王(King Wuyuan)/高祖 (Gaozu) 388-400, 409-412 [Surrendered to Later Qin in 400, restored his kingdom in 409]
乞伏炽磐 Qifu Chipan 文昭王(King Wenzhao) /太祖 (Taizu) 412-428
乞伏暮末 Qifu Mumo 后主 (Last Emperor) 428-431

后凉(Later Liang)(氐族 - Di ethnicity) - Destroyed by Later Qin
姓名 谥号/庙号
Name Posthumous Name/Temple Name Reign

吕光 Lu Guang 懿武皇帝(Emperor Yiwu)/太祖(Taizu) 386-399
吕绍 Lu Shao 隐王(King Yin) 399
吕纂 Lu Zuan 灵皇帝(Emperor Ling) 399-401
吕隆 Lu Long 后主 (Last Emperor) 401-403

南凉(Southern Liang)(鲜卑族 - Xianbei ethnicity)-Destroyed by Northern Liang
姓名 谥号/庙号
Name Posthumous Name/Temple Name Reign

秃发鸟孤 Tufa Wugu 武王 (King Wu)/烈祖(Liezu) 397-399
秃发利鹿孤 Tufa Lilugu 康王 (King Kang) 400-402
秃发褥擅 Tufa Nutan 景王 (King Jing) 402-414


Sorry for the late reply. Was busy during the week. 7 more kingdoms to go before I'm done.

[Yun]

Editing done...

[xu huang]

北凉(Northern Liang)(Mainly 卢水胡 Lushui Hu ethnicity - believed to be same as either Xiongnu 匈奴 or Yuezhi 月氏)-Destroyed by Northern Wei [Last of the '16 Kingdoms' to be destroyed, if Chouchi is excluded]
姓名 谥号/庙号
Name Posthumous Name/Temple Name Reign

段业 Duan Ye [Han ethnicity] 397-401
沮渠蒙逊 Juqu Mengxun 武宣王(King Wuxuan) 401-433
沮渠茂虔/牧犍 Juqu Maoqian/Mujian 哀王(King Ai) 433-439


南燕(Southern Yan)(鲜卑族 - Xianbei ethnicity)-Destroyed by Eastern Jin
姓名 谥号/庙号
Name Posthumous Name/Temple Name Reign

慕容德 Murong De 献武皇帝(Emperor Xianwu)/世宗 (Shizong) 398-405
慕容超 Murong Chao 北海王 (King of Beihai) 405-410


后/西蜀(Later/Western Shu)(汉族 - Han ethnicity)-Destroyed by Eastern Jin
姓名 谥号/庙号
Name Posthumous Name/Temple Name Reign

谯纵 Qiao Zong 405-413


西凉(Western Liang)(汉族 - Han ethnicity)-Destroyed by Northern Liang
姓名 谥号/庙号
Name Posthumous Name/Temple Name Reign

李暠 Li Gao 武昭帝 (Emperor Wuzhao)/太祖 (Taizu) 400-417
李歆 Li Xin 后主 (Last Emperor) 417-419
李恂 Li Xun 冠军侯 (Marqius Guanjun) 420-421

铁弗(Tiefu)(匈奴族 - Xiongnu ethnicity)- Destroyed by Northern Wei
姓名 谥号/庙号
Name Posthumous Name/Temple Name Reign

刘虎 Liu Hu 309-341
刘務桓 Liu Wuhuan 341-356
刘阏陋头 Liu Yanloutou 356-358
刘悉勿祈 Liu Xiwuqi 358-359
刘卫辰 Liu Weichen 359-391


夏(Xia)(匈奴族 - Xiongnu [Tiefu] ethnicity)-Destroyed by Northern Wei and finished off by the Tuyuhun 吐谷浑 people
姓名 谥号/庙号
Name Posthumous Name/Temple Name Reign

赫连勃勃 Helian Bobo 武烈皇帝(Emperor Wulie)/世祖(Shizu) 407-425
赫连昌 Helian Chang 废主 (Deposed Emperor) 425-428
赫连定 Helian Ding 后主 (Last Emperor) 428-431


北燕(Northern Yan)(汉族 - Han ethnicity)-Destroyed by Northern Wei
姓名 谥号/庙号
Name Posthumous Name/Temple Name Reign

冯跋 Feng Ba 文成皇帝(Emperor Wencheng) 409-430
冯弘 Feng Hong 昭成皇帝(Emperor Zhaocheng) 431-436

This post has been edited by Yun: 08 January 2006 - 06:22 AM

[Yun]

Clarification: The 铁弗 Tiefu Xiongnu are usually not counted among the 16 Kingdoms, but they are included here because they were the ancestors of Helian Bobo. Having lived in the Ordos Steppe for a long time, and having later pledged allegiance to the Former Qin, they were entrusted with governing the former lands of the Dai 代 state after the Former Qin conquered it. After Tuoba Gui restored the state of Dai as the (Northern) Wei in 386, he made war on the Tiefu and eventually destroyed them. Liu Bobo survived the Northern Wei attacks and fled to Gaoping 高平 in the Ordos Loop, where he later founded the Xia and changed his surname to Helian.

The Western Shu or Later Shu is another state that is usually left out of the 16 Kingdoms, because it was founded by an army mutiny in Eastern Jin Sichuan and lasted only 9 years before it was destroyed by Eastern Jin forces.

There is one more short-lived state that has been left out of the 16 Kingdoms: the 魏 state founded by the Di 翟 family of the Dingling 丁零 (also known as Gaoche 高车 and Tiele 铁勒) in Henan after the collapse of Former Qin power there. In 388, the Dingling leader Di Liao 翟辽 proclaimed himself Heavenly King of Wei 魏天王 at his base in Liyang 黎阳. A few months later, he moved his capital south across the Yellow River to Huatai 滑台. From there, he made raids on both the Eastern Jin and the Later Yan. In 391, Di Liao died and was succeeded by his son Di Zhao 翟钊.

In 392, Murong Chui, the ruler of the Later Yan, led an invasion of the Di-Wei kingdom, and defeated it through a classic example of the feinting attack (声东击西). Murong Chui's army had captured Liyang, but Di Zhao had set up strong defences on the south bank of the Yellow River to prevent the Later Yan from crossing it and attacking Huatai. Murong Chui led his army 40 li to the west of Liyang, to the Western Ford of the Yellow River. He also had 100 rafts made out of inflated leather skins and placed fake weapons on them. Di Zhao concluded that Murong Chui meant to cross at the Western Ford, and marched his army there. That night, a Later Yan force that had remained hidden at Liyang crossed the river there and built a fortified camp on the south bank. Di Zhao received news of this in the morning and quickly rushed back to attack this camp. Murong Chui had instructed the forces in the camp to hold out and not counterattack, and Di Zhao's exhausted and demoralized troops began to give up and desert. The camp garrison then sallied out, and at the same time the Later Yan main army had already crossed at the Western Ford and headed east to catch the Di-Wei forces in a pincer attack.

Di Zhao's army was shattered, and he fled back to Huatai, gathered his family and remaining followers, and crossed the Yellow River to seek refuge on the White Deer Mountain. The mountain was too steep for Later Yan troops to assault, so the Yan decided to just starve Di Zhao out, keeping cavalry scouts around the mountain to spot Di Zhao when he appeared. Di Zhao indeed brought his people down to the foot of the mountain to look for supplies, and the Later Yan then attacked them, capturing everyone except Di Zhao himself. Di Zhao escaped across the Taihang Mountains into Shanxi, and sought asylum with the Western Yan state which was a rival of the Later Yan. Murong Yong, the Western Yan ruler, appointed Di Zhao as a general, but in 393 Di Zhao attempted to rebel and was executed by Murong Yong.

The Di-Wei state thus lasted for only 5 years, from 388 to 392.

[Yun]

A map of the Former Qin state at its height in 382, when it had conquered the north, northeast, northwest and Sichuan, and seemed poised to conquer the Eastern Jin too, until it met an unexpected military disaster at the Fei River in 383:



A map of the north in 395, after the destruction of the Former Qin. States include Later Liang (which controls the Tarim Basin), Later Qin, Western Qin, Later Yan, and Northern Wei. Western Yan and Former Qin have just been conquered the previous year by Later Yan and Later Qin respectively:



In 396-397, Northern Wei will invade and take Hebei from the Later Yan, and parts of Later Liang will split off to form Northern Liang and Southern Liang, changing the map considerably. This map is again wrong about Chouchi. Chouchi is at this time practically independent, but in 396 the Chouchi ruler Yang Sheng will pledge allegiance to the Eastern Jin and be enfeoffed as Duke of Chouchi (even though he has already adopted this title on his own in 394). In 398, he will also pledge allegiance to the Northern Wei and be enfeoffed by them as Prince (or King) of Chouchi. In 405, under Later Qin attack, Yang Sheng also surrenders to the Later Qin and receives the title of Governor of Yizhou, but he rebels against the Later Qin again in 405. Throughout its long existence, Chouchi performs this delicate balancing act between powerful neighbours.

Lastly, a map of 409. Later Qin has conquered Later Liang, only to lose the area again to Southern Liang. Southern Liang will in turn lose it to Northern Liang in 410-411. Western Liang has split off from Northern Liang in 400, taking the entire Tarim Basin with it. Xia has conquered most of the Ordos Loop from Later Qin. Under Northern Wei invasion, Later Yan has retreated back to the northeast and then been usurped by the Feng family, whose state is called Northern Yan by historians; Northern Yan has later lost the Liaodong Peninsula to Koguryo. Another remnant of Later Yan survives in Shandong as Southern Yan, but will be conquered by Eastern Jin in 410. Western Qin has surrendered to Later Qin in 400, but later in this year (409), Qifu Qiangui will restore his state, taking advantage of the war between Xia and Later Qin. The Eastern Jin still controls some territory between the Yellow River and Huai River, conquered after the Fei River battle, but has also lost parts of it to Later Qin and Southern Yan. Sichuan is at this time controlled by the Western Shu state set up by mutinying Eastern Jin soldiers, but the map does not show this.

[norenxaq]

what was Murong Yun's lineage?

[Yun]

Murong Yun (orig. Gao Yun) was an adopted son of Murong Bao, the second Later Yan emperor. His grandfather Gao He was a distant member of the Koguryo royal family. The Koguryo kings had the surname Gao, and Murong Yun's biography in the Jin Shu says that they adopted this surname because they claimed descent from Gaoyang, i.e. Zhuanxu, the grandson of Huangdi and the second of the five legendary Sage-Kings.

[esse]

There was also the statelet of Wei 魏in Henan, found by Dingling丁零 Di 翟 chieftains that battled Later Yan on and off for years, finally destroyed by Murong Chui 慕容垂 in 392.

Officially, this "Wei" lasted only around 4 years, from the time when Di Liao 翟遼 titled himself (then fashionable) Tianwang. But the Dingling Zhai had been a force back in the time of Fu Jian.

In 382, Di Bin 翟斌 rebelled against Former Qin. This gives pretext to Murong Chui's request for a field assignment (to quell this rebellion). At the time, Murong Chui was under the command of Fu Pi 苻丕, a son of Fu Jian. He was disliked and distrusted by Pi. Once out of Fu Pi's control, Chui openly rebelled, found Later Yan, laid siege to Fu Pi's headquarters (Ye), with aid from Di Bin.

Di Bin however hedged his options, secretly requested an alliance with Fu Pi. This was discovered and greatly angered Murong Chui, who attacked and massacred the Dingling. Di Liao (son or nephew of Di Bin) escaped and surrendered to Eastern Jin, served under Teng Tianzhi 滕恬之, who was stationed at Liyang.

Prying on Teng's trust and naivety, Liao conspired to take over the troops and imprison Teng. He then proceeded to attack Eastern Jin without any success. He also entered an alliance with Western Yan, at the time Later Yan's chief rival.

In 387, Murong Chui attacked Liyang. Terrified, Liao submitted but rebelled again once Chui left. In 388, he founded Wei, with Huatai 滑台 as capital.

In 391, Liao died, and was succeeded by his son Zhao 釗. In 392, Murong Chui again attacked, heading for Huatai. Zhao was defeated, fled and took refuge with Western Yan. Suspected of subversive activities, Zhao was later executed by Western Yan ruler Murong Yong 慕容永 in 393.

Wei though short lasted and deemed too insignificant to be included with the other "16 kingdoms", the territory they once held was centrally located and historically significant.

[Edit by Yun: The surname of the Dingling-Wei ruling family is pronounced Di, not Zhai. Refer also to post #24 above.]

This post has been edited by Yun: 09 October 2007 - 04:48 PM

[norenxaq]

Yun, on Oct 29 2006, 07:48 AM, said:

Murong Yun (orig. Gao Yun) was an adopted son of Murong Bao, the second Later Yan emperor. His grandfather Gao He was a distant member of the Koguryo royal family. The Koguryo kings had the surname Gao, and Murong Yun's biography in the Jin Shu says that they adopted this surname because they claimed descent from Gaoyang, i.e. Zhuanxu, the grandson of Huangdi and the second of the five legendary Sage-Kings.

What is the lineage connecting Gao He with the Koguryu royal family?

thank-you

[Yun]

Unfortunately, that lineage is unknown.