[asiaconqueror]

I heard that Yongle Emperor was a famous Ming emperor. Can someone tell me more history about him?

[TongShanThaiHiung]

If i'm not mistaken,he was the guy who financed the naval expedition under admiral Zheng-he to make all the overseas state from japan to east africa become chinese tributary states.

Emperor Yong-le also mounted five military expedition into mongolia and totally crush the remnants of the yuan dynasty that fled to the north after got defeated by first emperor of the ming dynasty.He make mongolia into chinese tributary and all the tribes in mongolia must submit to him and proclaimed themselves vassal.

[jiangji]

The Yongle Emperor of China was the third ruler in the Ming Dynasty, from 1403 to 1424. He commissioned most of the exploratory sea voyages of Zheng He. During his reign the monumental Yongle Encyclopedia was completed. Compare to the Qing emperor (Kang Xi, Yongzhen, Qing long), he did not much.

[wuTao]

I would have to disagree with the opinion that he did not do much compared to the Qing emperors. I think his accoplishments makes him arguably the greatest monarch China has had.

Not only was he visionary in sending out Zheng He on exploratory missions, Yongle expanded China's sphere of influence and territory on land as well. He was unique in conquering Annam, which had not been under Chinese control since the last days of the Tang, and would never be under Chinese rule again. Manchuria and parts of Mongolia were added to the empire under his reign. Countries near and far had to respect the power of the Ming, because of the credible threat the Ming posed on land and on the sea. He led five expeditions against the Mongols during his rule (Yongle is probably one of the greatest warrior emperors in Chinese history, matched only by Taizong in my opinion), effectively canceling out the Mongol threat during his years as emperor. He oversaw the construction of the Forbidden City, and the building up of Beijing as the capital. And he was also a great patron of literature, the Yongle encyclopedia being the crowning achievement.

[Borjigin Ayurbarwada]

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I think his accoplishments makes him arguably the greatest monarch China has had.

Right, except for the fact that his reign ended with the bankrupcy of Ming.

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Not only was he visionary in sending out Zheng He on exploratory missions, Yongle expanded China's sphere of influence and territory on land as well. He was unique in conquering Annam, which had not been under Chinese control since the last days of the Tang, and would never be under Chinese rule again. Manchuria and parts of Mongolia were added to the empire under his reign. Countries near and far had to respect the power of the Ming, because of the credible threat the Ming posed on land and on the sea. He led five expeditions against the Mongols during his rule (Yongle is probably one of the greatest warrior emperors in Chinese history, matched only by Taizong in my opinion), effectively canceling out the Mongol threat during his years as emperor. He oversaw the construction of the Forbidden City, and the building up of Beijing as the capital. And he was also a great patron of literature, the Yongle encyclopedia being the crowning achievement.

Sending out the exploratory mission accomplished nothing but drained Ming treasury, the nations that subjected to Ming are mere tiny cities such as Malaca, Cylon, and Calicut, not of any major political acheivement. His conquest of Annam only added to the drainage to the already depleted treasury in the naval expedition along with his fruitless mongol campaigns of later years. Manchuria was taken not by force but by wealth and political display. Inner Mongolia was already in Ming hands since Hong Wu although its true that Zhu Di was responsible for subjugating them. His project in Beijing and construction of the great wall was highly unpopular in that it costed so much money and lives. His reign was ruthless and unenlightened, murdering all those that oppose him. The mongol threat was constantly rising and his last campaign against them is little more other than the fact that the khan refused to pay tribute. The only reason he wasn't considered as bad as Sui Yang di was because his last military capaigns weren't as disastrous and Ming didn't collapse, or else he was pretty much the same as the second Sui emperor, by the time he died, the Ming treasury is so drained that his successors and to cancel his enourmous projects and raise living standard. Despite this his tomb is built with the great rich and caused even more money. The best? Hardly

[Shadowfax]

Yongle Emperior also didn't inherit the empire from his father (Zhu Hongwu), in fact, he took it from his nephew. Before he became the emperior he was a Prince responsible for guarding the Great Wall.

[wuTao]

warhead, on Aug 24 2004, 07:57 AM, said:

Right, except for the fact that his reign ended with the bankrupcy of Ming.

Well, I believe one must weigh the benefits against the costs during the reign Yongle, and not just focus on the fact that Yongle drained the treasury. :D Afterall, many great rulers in history have put strains on the economy of their countries (for example, Trajan and Marcus Aurelius), yet this should not be the sole determinant of whether or not a reign is successful.

As for the expenditures of Yongle, they were either necessary or beneficial. For example, the Treasure Fleet not only protected China's coast by eliminating pirates and protected the lucrative trade through Malacca, it expanded China's knowledge of the outside world. Many scholars are critical of China in that they had no motivation to expand their knowledge and argued it led to China's downfall centuries later; was not Yongle visionary in that he tried to do just that?

The expeditions against the Mongols were one of those necessary expenditures. We must keep in mind that there were still Yuan claimants to the throne in Mongolia, and the campaigns led by Yongle was needed to blunt their power. As a specific example, that last campaign you mentioned was not because a khan refused to pay tribute, but because the Mongols were launching raids and invasions of Datong and Kaiping. I don't think anyone can fault Yongle for wishing to defend his empire.

As for Annam, yes, that probably was just for glory and not much else. :P

[Borjigin Ayurbarwada]

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As for the expenditures of Yongle, they were either necessary or beneficial. For example, the Treasure Fleet not only protected China's coast by eliminating pirates and protected the lucrative trade through Malacca, it expanded China's knowledge of the outside world. Many scholars are critical of China in that they had no motivation to expand their knowledge and argued it led to China's downfall centuries later; was not Yongle visionary in that he tried to do just that?

Guarding the coast is a minor use for the treasure fleet, as later emperors had other methods in doing so. For expanding knowledge wide, thats irrelevant for its time, you are using a modern perspective on ancient China which does not generate a good effect, indeed for the people of that time, the expeditions is little more than a heavy burden to the people and accomplished little political benefit. No one knows that future Europeans would surpass in technology.

[RollingWave]

He is a rather controversial emperor... espically now with the more modern historians who often try to take different views and checks of the old history...

First he took teh throne by force... he rebelled against his father's choosen successor (his nephew).... his reign sees the height of the Ming but also resulted in it's downfall (at least great finacial trouble), he greatly increased the power of Eunich (totally against the doctorins set by his father) which would plauge teh Ming for the rest of it's reign...

He did not inherit his father's conservative approach to spending money but apparently inherited his mercilessness and ability to perform great brutality... when he took the throne he commanded the most famous scholar at the time to write his inaguration speech.. the stounch scholar openly refused and even insulted him in front of everyone by writing the word "燕王篡位" (king yang steals the throne.. king yang is his original title) and throwing it on the ground in front of him... Yongle slaughtered anyone who was even remotely related to the scholar including all his students.

[jiangji]

wuTao, on Aug 24 2004, 07:25 AM, said:

I would have to disagree with the opinion that he did not do much compared to the Qing emperors. I think his accoplishments makes him arguably the greatest monarch China has had.

Not only was he visionary in sending out Zheng He on exploratory missions, Yongle expanded China's sphere of influence and territory on land as well. He was unique in conquering Annam, which had not been under Chinese control since the last days of the Tang, and would never be under Chinese rule again. Manchuria and parts of Mongolia were added to the empire under his reign. Countries near and far had to respect the power of the Ming, because of the credible threat the Ming posed on land and on the sea. He led five expeditions against the Mongols during his rule (Yongle is probably one of the greatest warrior emperors in Chinese history, matched only by Taizong in my opinion), effectively canceling out the Mongol threat during his years as emperor. He oversaw the construction of the Forbidden City, and the building up of Beijing as the capital. And he was also a great patron of literature, the Yongle encyclopedia being the crowning achievement.

The exploratory looks great but it actually lead the country into bankruptcy. His policy of exploration and expeditions costs a lots of money. After he died, the Ming began to declined. His exploration mission bring no benefit to the state.

[General_Zhaoyun]

Yongle emperor was actually a man of great strategy and ambition. It was during his time that Ming dynasty reached its peak and zenith of power. He was notable for moving the capital from Nanjing to Beijing, launched 5 expedition against the Mongol as well as sent Zheng He on 6 voyages to South-East Asia.

[RollingWave]

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Yongle emperor was actually a man of great strategy and ambition. It was during his time that Ming dynasty reached its peak and zenith of power. He was notable for moving the capital from Nanjing to Beijing, launched 5 expedition against the Mongol as well as sent Zheng He on 6 voyages to South-East Asia

that's what the conventional historians say anyway...... but looking from the other perspective.....

He moved the capital for quiet a few reason... one because that's where he's power base is...... and thus more securing his "acquired" throne.... of course it's undeniable that the move probably helped the Ming's defense against the north too...

His reign was the peak of the Ming also suggest (as many other so called peak emperors like Tang Tuan Zhong, Han Wu Di, Qian Long etc...) that he was somehow responsible for the decline too..... which would not be hard to find in his spendings and certain policies.

The Voyage today is still shrouded in much mystry as much of the documents have been destroyed :(..... would be very interesting to know more though.

[Koolasuchus]

Zhu Di burned the captial of the Mongols down to the ground and broke their power, that made him alright in the eyes of Chinese historians.

As for comparison with Sui Yangdi... when Sui Yangdi died he left behind a war torn country, and a full imperial treasury. When Zhu Di died, he left behind a stable country, and an empty imperial treasury. That fact alone made their reign completely different.

[Borjigin Ayurbarwada]

Its Zhu Yuan Zhang that burned Karakorum not Zhu Di.

[Koolasuchus]

warhead, on Nov 17 2004, 12:30 PM, said:

Its Zhu Yuan Zhang that burned Karakorum not Zhu Di.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

When Khara Khorum was burned in 1388, Zhu Di was already king of Yen and in charge of Northern Ming forces. I'm not sure if it was he who ordered the sack of the Mongolian captial or not, but most Mongols blame him for the destruction of the city of the khan.