[Borjigin Ayurbarwada]

Many people seem to leave out this interesting and important topic, the Rouran's wars against the Wei was similar to that of the Han and xiongnu, both strove to gain the allegience of the various states of the tarim. Wei eventually came out victorious and Rouran power was crushed under the warrior emperor Taiwudi(Tuoba Tao) But the Rouran were not exterminated until the Tu jue came into power.
I couldn't get my hands on a copy of Wei history so does anyone here have the detailed information of the wars and battles fought and their relations after the Rouran lost and the Wei in decline.

[Yun]

Warhead, here's another interesting perspective on the Wei-Rouran wars. Did you consider that the Rouran may have been militarily defeated by the Northern Wei most of the time, but they did indirectly cause the downfall of the Wei? Remember that the Six Garrisons on the northern border were set up to guard against Rouran invasions. After the moving of the capital to Luoyang, most of the Wei aristocracy lived extremely luxurious lives, while the soldiers in the Six Garrisons (who also included a large number of aristocrats as commanders) continued living harshly and were even stricken by famine on several occasions.

The Revolt of the Six Garrisons that began in 523 sparked off rebellions all over the Empire, and permanently destabilised it, leading to the rise of Erzhu Rong and Gao Huan, and the division of Northern Wei into Eastern Wei and Western Wei. And the incident that triggered off the 523 revolt in Huaihuang Garrison was a raid by the Rouran! The Rouran plundered the countryside around the garrison, and when the soldiers and residents asked the garrison commander to open up the emergency granary to feed them, he refused. They then rose up and killed him, and within months a Xiongnu soldier in the Woye Garrison, named Poliuhan Baling, also led a mutiny and killed the commander of his garrison. Before long, all six garrisons had either rebelled or fallen to the rebels.

[Borjigin Ayurbarwada]

do you have any detailed account of the battles?

[Yun]

That would take an amount of time that I unfortunately don't have right now. But if you can find it, there is a complete account of the Wei-Rouran wars, in simple Baihua Chinese, in Volume 18 of Bai Yang's translation of the Tongjian Jishi Benmo. Maps are also included.

[Borjigin Ayurbarwada]

the problem is i'm not in china now and have to wait a year to go back, and when i go back i'm going to get a S*** load of books since they are so cheap there.

[Borjigin Ayurbarwada]

I finally got my hands on Wei Shu in my college. It has a good collection of it. But its extremely difficult to decipher since it is completely the original with classical Chinese and no quotation mark, I could understand the Han Shu better since I already have a detailed background on it, but I'm not that detaily informed on Wei history so I have difficult just finding the page on the wars! I might need to get help from some of my language professors namely my mother.

[Yun]

In 391, during the war between Tuoba Gui and Liu Weichen, Tuoba Gui led a campaign against the defiant Rouran and inflicted a major defeat on them. The Rouran surrendered and several hundred of their aristocracy were taken to Yunzhong as prisoners. But in 394, a Rouran aristocrat named Yujiulu Shelun escaped back north and seized control of the Rouran by killing his own elder cousin. Pursued by Northern Wei troops, he led the Rouran north of the Gobi and began a great expansion of the Rouran lands. By 402, he had conquered so many tribal groups (including the Gaoche or Chi'le) that the Rouran Empire stretched from Yanqi (Qarashahar) on the Silk Road to the western border of Koguryo.

Shelun gave himself the title Doudai Kaghan, and organised his army into companies of a hundred and regiments of a thousand. Those who fought bravely in battle were rewarded with whatever booty they captured; those who were cowardly were executed by smashing their heads with rocks.

Thereafter the Rouran and the Wei engaged in numerous campaigns against each other, and while the Wei were often victorious (Shelun died while retreating on one such occasion in 410), they were never able to subdue the Rouran permanently because the vastness of the steppe allowed the Rouran to simply disappear, while the Wei could not sustain an occupying army in such a harsh environment. In 415, in one attempt to pursue the fleeing Rouran, 20-30% of the Wei troops froze to death or lost their fingers to frostbite in a blizzard.

In 423, the Wei adopted the strategy of building a Wall between the Ordos loop of the Yellow River and the Yan Mountains to protect the capital Pingcheng from Rouran raids. Troops were stationed at points along this wall, but in 425, upon hearing of the death of the Wei emperor Tuoba Si, the Rouran were still able break through and pillage the old Wei capital of Shengle with just 60,000 cavalry.

Tuoba Tao, Tuoba Si's son and successor, led an army of light cavalry to repel this attack, and was nearly captured when he was surrounded by Rouran heavy cavalry at Yunzhong. But the death of the Rouran commander from an arrow caused the Rouran to retreat, and Tuoba Tao lived to fight another day.

For the next 20 years (except in 431-436 when the Wei and Rouran had a treaty of intermarriage), Tuoba Tao led or launched regular campaigns against the Rouran, usually with faster light cavalry with few supplies so as to try and catch the fleeing Rouran. Finally, in 449 Tuoba Tao achieved a fairly decisive victory. A relatively small Wei force led by Tuoba Na was surrounded in ten layers by all the elite of the Rouran cavalry, and dug anti-cavalry ditches to put up a stubborn defence. The Rouran feared that this was a trap to delay them for the arrival of a Wei main force, and withdrew. Tuoba Na pursued the Rouran for 9 days and 9 nights, and the desperate Rouran finally abandoned their supplies so as to get away. More than 100,000 Rouran livestock and civilians were also captured by the Wei. This seriously weakened the Rouran, such that they did not dare to mount another offensive against the Wei until the reigning Kaghan (Chuluo Kaghan, Yujiulu Tuhezhen) died in 464 and was succeeded by his more daring and enterprising son.

This son was Yujiulu Yucheng (Shouluobuzhen Kaghan, r. 464-485), and he not only resumed the raids against the Northern Wei but also established relations with the Liu-Song and then the Southern Qi, sending envoys with gifts via the indirect route through the Silk Road, the Tuyuhun, and Sichuan to propose joint offensives against the Wei. These offensives were never really coordinated enough to have much effect, but did put more psychological pressure on the Northern Wei.

[Borjigin Ayurbarwada]

So from the inormation it seems Roulan abandoned the south, therefore the territory is still under Wei control right? So Wei abandoned the south of the gobi for the great wall?

[Yun]

Essentially, that's correct. The Rouran shifted their base of operations to the steppe north of the Gobi, but made periodic raids to the south to capture resources and slaves.

[Koolasuchus]

Tuo Ba Tao used some "dirty" tactics in his battles against Rouran, whom he renamed Rourou. One such tactics was that he ordered a feign retreat, and posion all the wells as his troops pass. The Rouran Khan was sure for a victory so he led his troops to chase the cowardly Wei king. However, eventually they need to stop and rest, so when they drink the water from the poisoned wells the Wei left behind, many got sick, more importantly most of the horses got sick. Tuo Ba Tao then led a counter attack and killed Rouran Khan in the battle.

[Yun]

Tuoba Tao actually decreed that in his empire, the Rouran should be referred to as the Ruanruan, meaning "wriggling worms" - a kind of 'psychological victory' to make up for the fact that he couldn't stop their raids militarily. That's why in many Western sources, the Rouran are still referred to as 'Juan-juan', using the old Wade-Giles romanisation system. That's something like a book on the Second World War referring to the Japanese as 'Japanese' and the Germans as 'Huns', and so it's much more objective and accurate to use the term 'Rouran'.

[Koolasuchus]

Yun, on Nov 28 2004, 07:38 AM, said:

Tuoba Tao actually decreed that in his empire, the Rouran should be referred to as the Ruanruan, meaning "wriggling worms" - a kind of 'psychological victory' to make up for the fact that he couldn't stop their raids militarily. That's why in many Western sources, the Rouran are still referred to as 'Juan-juan', using the old Wade-Giles romanisation system. That's something like a book on the Second World War referring to the Japanese as 'Japanese' and the Germans as 'Huns', and so it's much more objective and accurate to use the term 'Rouran'.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I checked my history books, the word Tuoba Tao used to call Wei's northern neighbors is pronounced RuRu and written as 蠕蠕.

Also, it appears that Rouran was the first to used the title Kghan, so I stand correctd in one of my other posts, in someone else's threads, somewhere in this forum.

[Yun]

Hi Koolasuchus, if you check one of the authoritative Chinese dictionaries, you'll find that this word 蠕, which is now pronounced 'ru', was formerly pronounced as 'ruan'.

[Koolasuchus]

Yun, on Dec 2 2004, 09:56 PM, said:

Hi Koolasuchus, if you check one of the authoritative Chinese dictionaries, you'll find that this word 蠕, which is now pronounced 'ru', was formerly pronounced as 'ruan'.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Interesting, my Xiandei Hanyu Cidian only say it is ru, and my history book usually give the pinyin if some character have an obscure pronounciation. What are the Chinese dictionaries you used that tell how a character is pronounced thousand years ago?

[Yun]

I'm using the 2002 Chinese-English edition of the Xiandai Hanyu Cidian, which states in brackets that 蠕 was "formerly pronounced as (旧读) ruan".