[somechineseperson]

Emperor Kangxi wrote:

无始无终，先作形声真主宰；
宣仁宣义，聿昭拯济大权衡。

森森万象眼轮中，须识由来是化工。
体一何终而何始，位三非寂亦非空。
地堂久为初人闭，天路新凭圣子通。
除却异端无忌惮，真儒若个不钦崇。

功求十字血成溪，百丈恩流分自西。
身列四衙半夜路，徒方三背两番鸡；
五千鞭打皮肤裂，六尺悬垂二盗齐；
惨动八埃惊九品，七言一毕万灵啼。

天门久为初人闭，福路全是圣子通。
我愿接受神圣子，儿子明分得永生。

If history had been slightly different, if the Catholic Church wasn't in the Counter-Reformation mood at the time, if there had been more Catholic missonaries like Matteo Ricci, he would have become China's first Christian emperor, like the Roman emperor Constantine.

Did Kangxi really believe?

This post has been edited by Yun: 13 November 2005 - 01:45 AM

[ChiangAP]

somechineseperson, on Nov 12 2005, 07:47 PM, said:

Emperor Kangxi wrote:

无始无终，先作形声真主宰；
宣仁宣义，聿昭拯济大权衡。

森森万象眼轮中，须识由来是化工。
体一何终而何始，位三非寂亦非空。
地堂久为初人闭，天路新凭圣子通。
除却异端无忌惮，真儒若个不钦崇。

功求十字血成溪，百丈恩流分自西。
身列四衙半夜路，徒方三背两番鸡；
五千鞭打皮肤裂，六尺悬垂二盗齐；
惨动八埃惊九品，七言一毕万灵啼。

天门久为初人闭，福路全是圣子通。
我愿接受神圣子，儿子明分得永生。

If history had been slightly different, if the Catholic Church wasn't in the Counter-Reformation mood at the time, if there had been more Catholic missonaries like Matteo Ricci, he would have become China's first Christian emperor, like the Roman emperor Constantine.

Was it a real tragedy? Or did Kangxi not really believe?

No opium war, no unequal treaties, no bloody civil war, one can always dream with hindsight...
Could an Emperor as conscious of his human responsibilities as Kangxi embrace lightly a foreign faith, whatever its merits, and impose it to his subjects? The fact is that he chose not to.
And Yongzheng, who also had a very high sense of duties, did not hesitate to curb the propagation of Christianity because he thought it was threatening the stability of the Chinese Empire. Duty is the Emperor's (or Government's) highest form of charity.

[TMPikachu]

would anyone mind translating it? I'm illiterate.
Maybe the Taiping rebellion would've had more support if such a thing happened.


How 'Christian' was Constantine anyways? To me all it seemed to have done is just persecute the pagans instead. Then the empire collapsed. (Dark Ages europe with Olympian gods would've been an interesting "what if"...)

"Was it a real tragedy? Or did Kangxi not really believe?"
what tragedy are you talking about? Then again, I can't read the topic of discussion anyways.

"what if's" are always fun. Maybe with Kangxi leading a Christian revolution, China would've submitted without much resistance to the Church and European powers. Probably end up something like the Phillipines or South American countries.

Or... Kangxi's policies are reversed by the next emperor if they are not popular in the court. But then.... maybe European powers would back another Christian candidate to take power, resulting in civil war, the loyalists growing ever bitter against the Europeans and Christians, the converts turning back on relics of their pagan past, and all kinds of terrible things happen. "what if"

This post has been edited by TMPikachu: 12 November 2005 - 04:55 PM

[TaiE]

So what, I almost become a christian too.
And, Manchu were assimilated totally by Han culture, even if Kangxi made out a policy to support christianity , it would not work either. That is why he abandoned, and why he was "almost", but not.

This post has been edited by TaiE: 12 November 2005 - 07:52 PM

[somechineseperson]

TMPikachu, on Nov 12 2005, 09:40 PM, said:

would anyone mind translating it? I'm illiterate.
Maybe the Taiping rebellion would've had more support if such a thing happened.
How 'Christian' was Constantine anyways? To me all it seemed to have done is just persecute the pagans instead. Then the empire collapsed. (Dark Ages europe with Olympian gods would've been an interesting "what if"...)

"Was it a real tragedy? Or did Kangxi not really believe?"
what tragedy are you talking about? Then again, I can't read the topic of discussion anyways.

"what if's" are always fun. Maybe with Kangxi leading a Christian revolution, China would've submitted without much resistance to the Church and European powers. Probably end up something like the Phillipines or South American countries.

Or... Kangxi's policies are reversed by the next emperor if they are not popular in the court. But then.... maybe European powers would back another Christian candidate to take power, resulting in civil war, the loyalists growing ever bitter against the Europeans and Christians, the converts turning back on relics of their pagan past, and all kinds of terrible things happen. "what if"

That's not what I think. I think we would have a Chinese brand of Christianity now, like the Chinese brand of Buddhism.

Sorry, but classical Chinese poetry is not easy to translate into English.

TaiE, on Nov 13 2005, 12:43 AM, said:

So what, I almost become a christian too.
And, Manchu were assimilated totally by Han culture, even if Kangxi made out a policy to support christianity , it would not work either. That is why he abandoned, and why he was "almost", but not.

Why do you just assume that Christianity is incompatible with Han culture? Buddhism originally was a foreign religion too, but it became sinised. In principle Christianity could too.

Is that why you left Christianity?

Suppose there does exist a sinised version of Christianity. The Christian equivalent of Chinese Buddhism. Would you become Christian?

This post has been edited by somechineseperson: 12 November 2005 - 10:37 PM

[TaiE]

somechineseperson, on Nov 13 2005, 11:27 AM, said:

Is that why you left Christianity?

Suppose there does exist a sinised version of Christianity. The Christian equivalent of Chinese Buddhism. Would you become Christian?

First of all, I need to clarify that I had never been a Christian. So, you should not say that I left Christianity.

The second, I would not choose Christianity because it is lack of flexiblity. I am a aethiest, i was just curious of ceremony in the church and like to see it as some kind of show or entertainment. Well, that few weekends night were just boring, now it is better, so I didn't go there anymore.

[Yun]

The Manchu emperors were patrons of many religions, and different things to different communities. To the Han, they were Neo-Confucians. To the Tibetans and Mongols, they were Lamaist Buddhists and they also patronised the worship of the Mongol war god Mahakala. It was a way of holding a multi-ethnic empire together. I guess they didn't do anything to accommodate the Hui Muslims because Islam works too differently.

The Kangxi emperor's receptiveness to the Christianity of the Jesuits was probably also part of his interest in their culture, and wanting to be a patron to the Chinese Christians. When the Vatican started saying that ancestor worship and Christian belief are incompatible, and that Shangdi and God are not the same thing, he quickly lost interest. After all, he had to maintain the shrines of his imperial ancestors, and make the ritual sacrifices to Heaven, in order to protect his legitimacy.

No Chinese emperor could have become a Christian and remained emperor for long. The weight of tradition was just too great, and he would have lost the allegiance of his entire political and cultural elite.

I think there is a case for this thread being moved to the Chinese Philosophy, Religion and Mythology section. The religious beliefs of the Qing emperors is actually a very interesting topic.

[MengTzu]

ChiangAP, on Nov 12 2005, 08:34 PM, said:

No opium war, no unequal treaties, no bloody civil war, one can always dream with hindsight...
Could an Emperor as conscious of his human responsibilities as Kangxi embrace lightly a foreign faith, whatever its merits, and impose it to his subjects? The fact is that he chose not to.
And Yongzheng, who also had a very high sense of duties, did not hesitate to curb the propagation of Christianity because he thought it was threatening the stability of the Chinese Empire. Duty is the Emperor's (or Government's) highest form of charity.

I don't think embracing Christianity has any relation to the fact that it was foreign. Buddhism was foreign, and it was embraced by many emperors. The last emperor of Ming did in fact embrace Christianity temporarily.

[Yun]

I have received complaints about this thread being in the Chinese Religion section, because Somechineseperson has become notorious for expressing his pro-Christian sentiments in every thread he makes.

Let me clarify here that the thread should be used to discuss the interaction between the Qing emperors (esp. Kangxi) and the Jesuits, and NOT whether it would have been better or worse if Christianity became the state religion of China. History is not about value judgments based on personal beliefs, and even less about guesswork. Please approach the question about whether the Kangxi emperor was close to conversion or not as a Historical question, not a religious one.

If the thread becomes another debate purely about Christianity as a religion, then I will personally move it back to Humanities and Social Sciences, with no hesitation.

Somechineseperson, I must ask you to translate the poem you posted, for the benefit of members who don't read Chinese. Otherwise I will delete it from that post.

[MengTzu]

Yun, on Nov 13 2005, 08:29 AM, said:

Somechineseperson, I must ask you to translate the poem you posted, for the benefit of members who don't read Chinese. Otherwise I will delete it from that post.

I actually find the poem beautiful, and it's a shame if you are going to delete it, so I'm gonna try to translate it myself. I'm afraid that it'll lose its beauty when not written in Chinese. When familiar Christian terms that we can hear often in English and modern Chineseare written in ancient Chinese, they seem so poetic, and they seem more to be telling a beautiful story than Evangelizing.

无始无终，先作形声真主宰；
Without beinning or end, the True Lord first created shape and sound.

宣仁宣义，聿昭拯济大权衡。
Proclaiming compassion and righteousness, (not sure what this line means.)

森森万象眼轮中，须识由来是化工。
(Not sure about this) The myriad of things we see, we should understand that they come from creation.

体一何终而何始，位三非寂亦非空。
One in Nature in the end and in the beginning, Three in Persons neither empty nor quiet (obvious critique of Buddhist doctrines?)

地堂久为初人闭，天路新凭圣子通。
The paradise on earth was long closed by the first man, the path to Heaven was newly opened by the Holy Son.

除却异端无忌惮，真儒若个不钦崇。
Ridding of heresies and and lack of propriety, how can the true Ru not give honor? (Ru is refered to as "Confucian". Note that the Jesuits believed that the early Confucians were Monotheists.)


功求十字血成溪，百丈恩流分自西。
The Merits on the Cross and the blood turning into a river, a long trail of grace flow from the West.

身列四衙半夜路，徒方三背两番鸡；
He stood in (something) on the nightly path, (something) the rooster crowed twice.

五千鞭打皮肤裂，六尺悬垂二盗齐；
Five thousand whips caused his skin to break, his six-foot body was hung next to the two thieves.

惨动八埃惊九品，七言一毕万灵啼。
The sorrow moved (something), (something) (I'm so sorry, ancient Chinese is tough to a modern Chinese like me.)

天门久为初人闭，福路全是圣子通。
The door of Heaven was long closed by the first man, the path of grace is opened by the Holy Son.

我愿接受神圣子，儿子明分得永生。
I willingly accept the Holy Son of God, (something) obtain eternal life.

Okay, somebody who's better at this please translate. I just don't want Yun to delete it, so I'll offer my temporary translation. Notice that I'm trying so hard to keep this not because I'm promoting Christianity (I'm no longer a believer in Christianity, although I still practice Catholicism partially), but because it contains a lot of interesting academic points (such as what is possibly a critique of Buddhist doctrines, a the mentioning of the "true Confucians," and Kangxi's acceptance of Christ) and that it is beautifully written in ancient Chinese.

[fcharton]

Hey MengTzu,

I did not feel courageous enough to try to translate (besides I don't have my dictionary at hand), but here are a couple of comments which might help you... My impression is that this poem describes christianism more that it compares it to other religions. Anyway, here are a couple of quick notes

森森万象眼轮中，须识由来是化工。
(Not sure about this) The myriad of things we see, we should understand that they come from creation.

"All the images everywhere which turn around our eyes, we have to know they come from the work of his hands" (ie God created everything)


体一何终而何始，位三非寂亦非空。
One in Nature in the end and in the beginning, Three in Persons neither empty nor quiet (obvious critique of Buddhist doctrines?)

"His body one, without beginning or end, yet it is three persons, neither empty nor quiet (Trinity+ personal religion, I'd say)


The second paragraph is a description of the crucifixion.

功求十字血成溪，百丈恩流分自西。
The Merits on the Cross and the blood turning into a river, a long trail of grace flow from the West.

His deeds were washed with his blood on the cross, ... (not sure of the second part)


身列四衙半夜路，徒方三背两番鸡；
He stood in (something) on the nightly path, (something) the rooster crowed twice.

Maybe : "his body was diplayed in the streets, for half of the night, his disciple thrice turned away from him, while the rooster crowed twice" (St Peter)


惨动八埃惊九品，七言一毕万灵啼。
The sorrow moved (something), (something) (I'm so sorry, ancient Chinese is tough to a modern Chinese like me.)

七言 refers to the 7 last words of the Christ
second part should be "After he spoke the seven words, his ten thousand souls were released"

我愿接受神圣子，儿子明分得永生。
I willingly accept the Holy Son of God, (something) obtain eternal life.

... my/his children will receive grace and share eternal life.

Hope this helps, (and btw yes it is a beautiful poem, don't take it away)
Francois

[TaiE]

I 've read the poem thoroughly several times. IMO, Kangxi was still a confucianist , at least in a confucianist or buddist thoughtway and write down such a poem. I can feel. Ok, all of you can examine it carefully.


Reading a chinese poem , we need to be always careful of the thoughts especially religous thing that one try to release and reflect in it. It is just too direct, well, forgive him that he was just a child then, wasn't he? For most of the time, don't take chinese poems seriously. I would see it as a description of the Chritianity by using chinese traditional poem template, and at last express the feeling( which might not be always true, and sometimes exaggeration is required).

[fcharton]

TaiE, on Nov 13 2005, 01:11 PM, said:

I 've read the poem thoroughly several times. IMO, Kangxi was still a confucianist , at least in a confucianist or buddist thoughtway and write down such a poem. I can feel. Ok, all of you can examine it carefully.

Since I have TaiE's ok, here is a small attempt at translation. I did not try to make my translation poetic, just give a account of the meaning. Somechineseperson, it would be interesting if you could give a number of details on when and how it was composed...

My first (and non chinese, obviously) impression is that it looks like some kind of summary of christianism. I don't think any comparison with other religions is done, and even though one can feel Kangxi's interest, I think it is far from a declaration of faith.


无始无终，先作形声真主宰；
Without beginning or end, he who first created shapes and sounds is the True Lord.
宣仁宣义，聿昭拯济大权衡。
Showing universal compassion and justice, he proclaimed and explained his laws.


森森万象眼轮中，须识由来是化工。
Everywhere, all the things that our eyes can see around them, we must now they were created by his works
体一何终而何始，位三非寂亦非空。
His body is one, with no beginning nor end, but he stands as three, neither quiet not empty
地堂久为初人闭，天路新凭圣子通。
The paradise on earth was long ago close to the first man, but the ways to Heavens was reopened by the son of God.
除却异端无忌惮，真儒若个不钦崇。
Refusing the extraordinary, straightforward and without fear, how can the True Doctrine not be admired by everyone?

功求十字血成溪，百丈恩流分自西。
Through his deeds, the blood spillt on the cross became a river, and many person set from the west to tell of his mercy
身列四衙半夜路，徒方三背两番鸡；
While he was taken to the tribunal in the middle of the night, his disciple betrayed him three times before the rooster had sung twice
五千鞭打皮肤裂，六尺悬垂二盗齐；
Five thousand whips broke into his skin, he was hung six feet wide between two bandits
惨动八埃惊九品，七言一毕万灵啼。
To the sorrow of everyone, once he had uttered seven words, his souls escaped from his body.

天门久为初人闭，福路全是圣子通。
The door to Heaven was close by the first man, but the road to bliss was reopened by the son of God.
我愿接受神圣子，儿子明分得永生
If I honestly receive the spirit, God and the son, my children will receive the grace (illumination) and share eternal life.


Now, some of these translations are probably very wrong, as usual comments are welcome.

Francois

[Yun]

Some suggestions for better translation:

除却异端无忌惮，真儒若个不钦崇。
It (Christianity) fearlessly eradicates heresies, how then can true Confucians not admire it? [A reference probably to Buddhism and Daoism, which were condemned as heretical by orthodox Neo-Confucians]

惨动八埃惊九品，七言一毕万灵啼。
His suffering shook the eight heavens(?) and astounded the court ministers (Nine Ranks), and when his seven last words ended, ten thousand souls wept. [A skillful play on phrases with numbers in them]

我愿接受神圣子，儿子明分得永生
I am willing to accept the Holy Son of God, and gain eternal life with the status of God's son. [Reading 明分 as a variant of 名分]

[Yun]

Quote

Emperor Kangxi wrote:

无始无终，先作形声真主宰；
宣仁宣义，聿昭拯济大权衡。

森森万象眼轮中，须识由来是化工。
体一何终而何始，位三非寂亦非空。
地堂久为初人闭，天路新凭圣子通。
除却异端无忌惮，真儒若个不钦崇。

功求十字血成溪，百丈恩流分自西。
身列四衙半夜路，徒方三背两番鸡；
五千鞭打皮肤裂，六尺悬垂二盗齐；
惨动八埃惊九品，七言一毕万灵啼。

天门久为初人闭，福路全是圣子通。
我愿接受神圣子，儿子明分得永生。

According to my sources, each stanza above is actually a complete poem in itself, and these are four separate poems written at different times.

Quote

It is just too direct, well, forgive him that he was just a child then, wasn't he?

He was probably quite old when he wrote the poems - he was on good terms with the Jesuits until he was around 62. The break came when the Vatican ruled against using 'Shangdi' to refer to God and forbade Chinese Christians to practice ancestor worship or to revere Confucius or the Confucian Classics. This was a direct suppression of the policy that the Jesuits had followed in China.

The Kangxi emperor and the Jesuits argued that ancestor sacrifices were merely an expression of filial piety, and not religious worship. Confucius was a great sage and teacher and it was justified to revere him. After numerous meetings with Cardinal Mezzabarba, the Pope's envoy, the emperor ascertained that the Vatican was not going to budge, and wrote:
"How can these narrow-minded Western people understand the greater wisdom of the Chinese? After all, none of them can read Chinese books, and their speech and opinions are mostly quite laughable. I have read their message, and it turns out to be no different from the little heresies of the Buddhist monks and Daoist priests. There could be no greater degree of nonsensical talk. In future there will be no further need for Westerners to propagate their religion in China; it will be enough to ban them, lest greater trouble arise."

Original Chinese: 只说得西洋人等小人，如何言得中国人之大理？况西洋人等，无一人通汉书者，说言议论，令人可笑者多。今见来臣告示，竟与和尚道士异端小教相同。彼此乱言者，莫过如此。以后不必西洋人在中国行教，禁止可也，免得多事。

Kangxi allowed the Jesuits to go to the Vatican to present their case, but they too failed to change the Pope's mind. In 1716, Kangxi placed a ban on Christianity. In 1720, his successor the Yongzheng emperor intensified the ban, ejecting all missionaries, closing down all churches, and ordering Chinese Christians to renounce the religion on pain of death. The ban was never strictly enforced through campaigns of persecution, unlike in Japan during the 17th century. Some missionaries remained active in secret on the southern coast over the next hundred years or so. But the influence of the Jesuits at the Qing court was ended.