[CrimsomLightning]

This new classification is mainly based on root mtDNA haplogroups, N* and M*, and its connection to very ancient lineages that evolved into present day races. I named the two main lineages after their most primitive modern representatives, Austroloids and Negritos. Their descendants are traced to major modern-day races such as Caucasian and Mongoloids, but it also clarifies the immense admixture and 'layering' that occured, especially in Oceania, Siberia, Central Asia, East Asia, and America.

This completely destroys the myths about sub-races such as tungid, sinid, koreanid, Americanid,etc, because these groups are just admixed variations of two main lineages. For example, indonoid from Tibet + Lower Mongoloid from Manchuria = "Tungid" or indonoid from Far East Russia+ sub-mongoloid from Japan = Amerind (a population that was admixed before entering the New World).

http://img479.images...89/mrmap3bu.jpg

~~~~~Austronoid sub-races and types

http://img144.images...stroloid7au.jpg
Austroloid <least specialized | South branch> (India/Pakistan/S. Arabia/Melanesia/Australia)
- Melanesian - Ancient Sumerian* - Ancient Egyptian* - Austroloid - Ancient Dravidian* - Vedic

http://img144.images...indonoid5im.jpg
Indonoid <moderately specialzed | Central Branch> (E. Central Asia/West Siberia/ N.E. India/ N.E. Asia/Tibet/N. & S. America)
- Andean - Mayan - Jomon - Ancient Tibetan* - Ancient Tarim Basin* - Ancient North China* -Kennewick* - Aboriginal Afghan* - *Ancient Manchurian

http://img202.images...siberian9st.jpg
Paleo-Siberian <moderately specialized | Northeast Branch> (Central Siberia/Far East Russia/ N. Japan/Amur River Area/N. America/E. Russia)
- Ainu - Na-Dene* - Ancient Siberian* - Ancient Mongolian* - Ket

http://img144.images...aucasian2kv.jpg
Caucasoid <most specialized | Northwest Branch> (Europe/Middle East/W. Central Asia/C. Siberia)
- Mediterrenean - Nordic - Arab - Persian - Tocharian*

~~~~Negritoid sub-races and types

http://img202.images.../negrito9hk.jpg
Negrito <least specialized | South Branch> (India/S.E. Asia/Oceania/West Pacific Rim/S. & C. China/Australia/S. Tibet/Sahuland)
- Andaman - Nicobarese - Malay Negrito - Phillipines Negrito - Tibet Negrito* - Indian Negrito* - Sri Lanka Negrito - Australia/Melanesia Negrito - S. China Negrito* - Japanese Negrito* - Korean Negrito* - N.E. China Negrito* - E. China Negrito* - S.W. China Negrito*

http://img202.images...ongoloid8al.jpg
Pre-Mongoloid <somewhat specialized | South Central Branch> (China/Myanmmar/S.E. Asia/Korea/Mongolia/N.E. Siberia/N. & S. America/Japan)

- Ancient Amazonian* - Ancient Andean* - Ancient Southern Chinese* - Ancient Southern Japanese* - Ancient South East Asian* - Ancient Taiwanese* - Modern Cambodian - Modern Indonesians

http://img202.images...ongoloid8uu.jpg
Sub-Mongoloid <moderately specialized | Upper South Branch> (China/Korea/Japan/Taiwan/Mongolia/E. Sibera/S.E. Tibet/N. & S. America)

- Modern Vietnamese - Southeast Chinese* - Ancient East Chinese* - Modern South East Asian - Modern Phillipinos - Polynesians* - Okinawan - Taiwanese Aboriginal - Amazonian - Modern South American Mongoloids

http://img144.images...ongoloid8pc.jpg
Lower-Mongoloid <moderately specialized | Eastern Branch> (Taiwan/Korea/Japan/Manchuria/E. China/E. Siberia/N. & S. America/Mongolia/Central Asia/Ural Area)

- S. Japanese - Modern Taiwanese - Aleutian/Chukchi - Korean - Modern Central Asian Mongoloid - Modern Central Japanese - Modern East Chinese - Modern East Siberian - North American Mongoloid

http://img202.images...ongoloid0wa.jpg
Mongoloid <very specialized | North East Branch> (N. Korea/N. & C. China/Mongolia/Inner Mongolia/N. Central Siberia)

- Modern Central Chinese - Korean* - Central Mongolian - Modern North Eastern Chinese - Modern Northwest Chinese

http://img202.images...ongoloid9ek.jpg
Upper-Mongoloid <most specialized | North Central Branch> (N. China/Inner Mongolia/N. Korea)

- Modern North Central West Chinese - N. Korean - Buryat*

This post has been edited by CrimsomLightning: 17 November 2005 - 09:27 AM

[Yun]

So your view would be that the population of north China has been extensively 'Negritized' over the course of history?

[Kulong]

Interesting choice of pictures to represent each race...

[CrimsomLightning]

Populations with the 'negrito' morphology in North East Asia has been exenstively diluted, extinct or absorbed. Since they lived in small pockets arounds the costal areas, they are not found inland in East Asia.

The pictures are general representations of each sub-race, the 'types' are more specific.

[qrasy]

So: you assume that "Mongoloid" is just collections of some branches of "Negritoid"? And besides "Negritoid" and "Negroid" all are assumed to be "Indonoid"?
I also noticed you put many stars, does that mean you are not quite sure about the type?
(well, about the pictures, I should say that your selection of "Submongoloid" the does not look modern Southeast Chinese at all, does not even look common North Viet; your "Mongoloid" (and "upper") look more like Southeast Chinese; nobody there looks specialized Mongolian, etc etc)

And the "subracial" divisions above is not very different from "Tungid", "Sudsinid" etc. (you said "sub-races and types"?), just a different way of splitting them.
If you want to destroys those subraces, why don't you just do "Negritoid" and put all pictures together etc.?

but, by the way, I don't think that race and lineages corresponds very well to each other, since "racial" characteristics are autosomal.

This post has been edited by qrasy: 17 November 2005 - 07:55 AM

[urofpersia]

Kulong, on Nov 17 2005, 08:02 AM, said:

Interesting choice of pictures to represent each race...

Indeed, perhaps it reflects bias on the part of the poster?

[CrimsomLightning]

qrasy, on Nov 17 2005, 05:22 AM, said:

I also noticed you put many stars, does that mean you are not quite sure about the type?
(well, about the pictures, I should say that your selection of "Submongoloid" the does not look modern Southeast Chinese at all, does not even look common North Viet; your "Mongoloid" (and "upper") look more like Southeast Chinese; nobody there looks specialized Mongolian, etc etc)

The stars represent heavily diluted or admixed populations. To you what is a specialized Mongoloid? They are probably an admixed phenotype.

[xng]

CrimsomLightning, on Nov 17 2005, 08:31 AM, said:

The stars represent heavily diluted or admixed populations. To you what is a specialized Mongoloid? They are probably an admixed phenotype.

I think you have never been to east asia.

How can you group south east chinese under sudmongolica ? Are you one of those caucasian who doesn't know how to differentiate between the sinica and sudmongolica ? I have met many caucasians who are like that.

It doesn't matter that they are admixture. Water has 3 states, solid, liquid and gas. At certain temperature they change state even though the temperature range is continuous.

You are splitting some subraces that are hardly recognizable from each other. It is just like splitting water temperature at 30 degree from 50 degree which are still liquid.

To group an arabic person as the same as the nordic is also stretching it. Most people know how to distinguish between an arab and a person from sweden.

This post has been edited by xng: 18 November 2005 - 01:59 AM

[qrasy]

CrimsomLightning, on Nov 17 2005, 10:31 PM, said:

The stars represent heavily diluted or admixed populations. To you what is a specialized Mongoloid? They are probably an admixed phenotype.

Specialized Mongolian means that the type that can only be Mongolian (and VERY close relatives) and nobody else; example here:
http://i6.photobucke...42/qrasy/X1.jpg (note: I can't think of any mixture of others that can cause this special look effect)

When "A with some B mixture" is closer to B, it should be considered "B with A some mixture" rather than "A heavily diluted with B".

xng, on Nov 18 2005, 02:53 PM, said:

I think you have never been to east asia.

How can you group south east chinese under sudmongolica ? Are you one of those caucasian who doesn't know how to differentiate between the sinica and sudmongolica ? I have met many caucasians who are like that.

Those may be wrong issue; half Malays and half Chinese tends to be a target of view since the legend that North and South Chinese are easily distinguished; or that South Chinese look Vietnamese: South Vietnamese are considerably more Cambodian than North one.
How diverse is Vietnamese? Well, some individuals of Northern East Asian population can pass Vietnamese, even some who I thought could never be Vietnamese!!
The "Submongoloid" looks much less 'Chinese' than this (North?) Vietnamese does: http://i6.photobucke...sy/nviet111.jpg
I think that "Submongoloud" picture could pass Western Indonesian.
In fact his "Mongoloid" looks Fujianese; and his "upper Mongoloid" look like one Vietnamese in other board. His "premongoloid" does not look too Indonesian, but look more Chinese than his "Submongoloid" is!! (what? am I kidding? Just the "Submongoloid" above doesn't look very Asian)
One more thing is that the Tibetan looks quite oriental.

Quote

To group an arabic person as the same as the nordic is also stretching it. Most people know how to distinguish between an arab and a person from sweden.

That's right, I can distinguish at least 2 kinds of European, keep away Arabian and (South Asian) Indian.

Furthermore I want to say that mtDNA analysis is only roughly as reliable as Y-gene. (you want to know what I once 'got' by Y-gene chart? Chinese are closer to West Indonesian anf Filipino than Mongolian; so probably that's how Tibetan is closer to Indian.)

Nothing should be concluded unless if they (paternal and maternal lineages) give the same results e.g. the oldest lineages of mtDNA and Y-gene are found mostly in African.

This post has been edited by qrasy: 18 November 2005 - 06:28 AM

[CrimsomLightning]

http://img145.images...362/lord8ft.jpg

Look at that pic, on the top, im comparing the girl you think is fully Mongoloid with a Greek girl, notice the similarities in the facial structure, although the eyes are very different which is why I covered them. Even if refure by saying that the Greek girl must have Turk/Mongol blood it doesnt take away that she is still mixed with Caucasian.

The rest are comparisons with other Negritoid-derived (that doesnt mean they are Negritos now, just that their remote ancestors shared the same lineage with the negritos of Asia) Lower-Mongoloid/Sub-Mongoloid/Mongoloid individuals and some have admixture with other types, such as the Indonoids (noticed by prominent nose, weak chin) and Caucasians (prominent nose, strong chin), who both are Austronoid derived according to my classification system.

[qrasy]

You'd be surprised that I don't actually want to refute that statement I've long ago heard about Caucasoid mixtures in Mongolians.
but seeing from eyes, you'd know what I thought.

The pictures "Submongolid with Mongolid mixture" and "Mongolid with Submongolid mixture" there do not seem to have any significant difference; I won't even know which one is larger. But among those in the last picture, nobody looks like the first Submongolid picture you posted.
Taiwanese aborigine<->"Submongolid" is also kind of crude; what I know is that Taiwanese aborigines can range of anyone in east Asia and Americas (exc. Mongolian), even Japanese to Indonesian.
I don't like the name "Submongolid" (or any name with "lower"/"sub") but what you refer to is similar to what I think of "Yue".

[CrimsomLightning]

qrasy, on Nov 18 2005, 11:38 AM, said:

The pictures "Submongolid with Mongolid mixture" and "Mongolid with Submongolid mixture" there do not seem to have any significant difference; I won't even know which one is larger.

Both Fann Wong and that Cantonese girl have a larger proportion of the sub-mongoloid phenotype compared to Mongoloid, but Wong has more. You can tell from her eyes and not as big lips.

Quote

Taiwanese aborigine<->"Submongolid" is also kind of crude; what I know is that Taiwanese aborigines can range of anyone in east Asia and Americas (exc. Mongolian), even Japanese to Indonesian.

At least that particular Taiwanese Aboriginal has a very common sub-mongoloid phenotype. There are other aboriginals that resemble Indonoid or Paleo-Siberian admix types that came south from the coast of Japan, as they were being pushed out by the Mongoloids and Lower-Mongoloids from inland E.A.

These are other sub-mongoloids:

http://www.hotlines....nese%20girl.jpg
http://j.b5z.net/i/u...rl-4-yellow.jpg

And these are Indonoid admixes who are from opposite parts of East Asia but still resemble each other.

China (Indonoid/Mongoloid): http://people.su.se/...229/new_pa9.jpg

Korea (Indonoid/Lower-Mongoloid): http://chinese.chosu...0000201quan.jpg

This post has been edited by CrimsomLightning: 18 November 2005 - 12:19 PM

[qrasy]

I cannot tell most of the "systematic" differences beside eyes, what do you think is the difference between the Greek girl and the what you call "lower mongoloid" and "submongoloid" (again, I'm asking besides the eyes).

I don't understand how you determined to "divide" between "Mongoloids" and "lower" etc.; if I'm not wrong Taiwanese aborigine can look North Chinese ;

the pictures of Mongolids seem drifted Southward; the "upper Mongoloid" and "plain Mongoloid" look not Northern enough (what? the "upper" even look somehow South by those large eyes); I guess you assume is that some kind of unique (small?) eyes are result interaction between "Indonoid" and "Mongoloid" so that "NordChinese" are not included.

and what do you think about the first "Submongolid": I think she looks quite Indonesian: "less Mongoloid" than anyone except "Negrito" in the "Negritoid", even if compared with the Taiwanese aborigine above.
Is this a "very pure" Submongolid in your mind? http://www.saintmary...nsen/mongol.GIF

Non-Dayak Indonesian looks unlike the premongoloid; instead they also look "not Mongoloid enough". I'm not sure about Polynesian (I've never seen), I guess they look sort of.
Enough member to form "Malay" group. Of course, you can assume they are mix of "Negritoid" and "other Mongolid".

Also, I don't see who they are:

Quote

Tibet Negrito* - S. China Negrito* - Japanese Negrito* - Korean Negrito* - N.E. China Negrito* - E. China Negrito* - S.W. China Negrito*

Just show me NE China Negrito and I would believe that there are Negito in other population I doubted.

Lastly, you should divide into "smaller pieces"; the Nordic-Arab group is too large for almost all people in the world. Care to elaborate the "divisions" of Caucasoid group?

[CrimsomLightning]

http://img489.images...96/heart2az.jpg

This is the most detailed morphological map I have made. It shows the areas and paths taken by groups to populate East Eurasia. Starting with people having a Negrito-like morphology inhavibiting the southern and coastal areas of Eastern Asia, and the subsequent evolution of more specialized morphologies in China, and their spread out to Central Asia, Siberia, and the New World. It also shows the contribution from people of the 'Austronoid' lineages, including Indonoids, Paleo-Siberians and Caucasoids as they moved eastwards.

qrasy, on Nov 19 2005, 06:19 AM, said:

the pictures of Mongolids seem drifted Southward; the "upper Mongoloid" and "plain Mongoloid" look not Northern enough

Mongoloids have a southern origin, and they must share features with their southern ancestors. The difference is that their features were modified to resemble the original Negrito phenotype less than previous generations, that is specialization.

Quote

(what? the "upper" even look somehow South by those large eyes); I guess you assume is that some kind of unique (small?) eyes are result interaction between "Indonoid" and "Mongoloid" so that "NordChinese" are not included.

Generally eye-size or shape isnt important in clasifying phenotypes because they can vary locally and can change quickly since its mostly a superficial (skin) attribute and not structual (bone). Even within Negrito populations their eyes can vary from squinty to very big.

Quote

and what do you think about the first "Submongolid": I think she looks quite Indonesian

The majority of Indonesians are a mixture of Negrito/Pre-Mongoloid and to a lesser degree Austroloid and Sub-Mongoloids. "Pure" Sub-Mongoloids look like the Taiwanese aboriginal girl I posted. And this man:
http://www.saintmary...nsen/mongol.GIF
seems to be admixed with Pre-Mongoloid.

Quote

Just show me NE China Negrito and I would believe that there are Negito in other population I doubted.

Negritos in North East Asia are extinct but 10 thousand years ago they were inhabiting the coastal fringes, as the Yellow Sea expanded some moved inland closer to Eastern China. The true Mongoloid phenotype did not evolve yet, there were only Sub-Mongoloids. Most negritos in thos areas must have died off and a few have been absorbed.

Quote

Lastly, you should divide into "smaller pieces"; the Nordic-Arab group is too large for almost all people in the world. Care to elaborate the "divisions" of Caucasoid group?

Most arabs are mixes of Austroloid and Caucasian (also negroid), but a few Arabs who represent the a late wave from the north towards the Arab penninsula can be considered Caucasians. I mostly concentrate on 'Mongoloid' morphology which is why im more specific in classifying them.

This post has been edited by CrimsomLightning: 19 November 2005 - 12:55 PM

[qrasy]

CrimsomLightning, on Nov 20 2005, 01:52 AM, said:

Mongoloids have a southern origin, and they must share features with their southern ancestors.

Hm... how about the epicanthic folds? Broad Big Head? Were the Southern place full of desert? Or were the South very cold?

Quote

Generally eye-size or shape isnt important in clasifying phenotypes because they can vary locally and can change quickly since its mostly a superficial (skin) attribute and not structual (bone). Even within Negrito populations their eyes can vary from squinty to very big.

Variations always exist, but out of bond should be one of the consideration. Sometimes strange eye shapes mean admixtures. Even I doubt Nicobarese as Negritos since their diversity are so high, some look Asians while some look somehow Papuan, it's like population not thoroughly mixed.
Yeah, about bones maybe you should cover all the eyes and show me the comparison. I can't see most of the difference between the bone of the groups.
What must be taken into account? Width and Height? I see somehow narrow face are somehow found more in Caucasians?

Quote

The majority of Indonesians are a mixture of Negrito/Pre-Mongoloid and to a lesser degree Austroloid and Sub-Mongoloids. "Pure" Sub-Mongoloids look like the Taiwanese aboriginal girl I posted. And this man:
http://www.saintmary...nsen/mongol.GIF
seems to be admixed with Pre-Mongoloid.

Most people don't know about what you think, just distinguish Negrito and Mongoloid. "Submongoloid-mix-Negrito" do not look very different from "Premongoloid-mix-negrito"; your past post about "Indonoid-Mongoloid" mix look almost not different (bone).

Quote

Negritos in North East Asia are extinct but 10 thousand years ago they were inhabiting the coastal fringes, as the Yellow Sea expanded some moved inland closer to Eastern China. The true Mongoloid phenotype did not evolve yet, there were only Sub-Mongoloids. Most negritos in thos areas must have died off and a few have been absorbed.

Somewhere I saw old "North Chinese head profile" morphology is like Negrito. Didn't know that you refer to ancient population.

Quote

I mostly concentrate on 'Mongoloid' morphology which is why im more specific in classifying them.

But as I have said I only distinguish systematically a few of them.
It's like defining "Rectangle", "Circle" and most people can only add "Rounded Rectangle"; more specific distinguishment requires some systematic explanation to make things clear.

Also, just how "Austronoid" are Tibetans, I thought they were predominantly Mongoloids.