[MengTzu]

What are the Han surnames that Manchurians adopted?

[naruwan]

MengTzu, on Nov 17 2005, 10:07 PM, said:

What are the Han surnames that Manchurians adopted?

i had a similar thread on last name adpated by Taiwanese aboriginals. Which now are 88% of the Taiwanese population.

[tianzhuwoye]

Here’s a few of the changes usually associated with some of the bigger names:

Donggo: 蕫 Dong
Feimo/ Magiya: 马 Ma
Fuca: 富/ 傅 Fu
Guuwalgiya: 关 Guan
Heseri: 赫 He
Irgen Gioro: 赵 Zhao, 邵 Shao
Kija: 齐 Qi
(Yehe) Nara: 那 Na
Niohuru: 郎 Lang
Sakda: 唐 Tang
Samara: 蔡 Cai
Socoro: 索 Suo
Suumuru: 舒 Shu
Tunggiya: 佟 Tong
Ujala: 吴 Wu
Wanyan/Wanggiya: 王 Wang

There's a bunch more but for the most part, adopted names were just based on phonetics. Niohuru comes from niohe, meaning 'wolf.'

[qrasy]

naruwan, on Nov 18 2005, 02:24 PM, said:

i had a similar thread on last name adpated by Taiwanese aboriginals. Which now are 88% of the Taiwanese population.

how is the pattern? I also don't believe there are more than 50%.
(oops, don't spam this topic, you can't do more than adding the link to your topic or the topic starter will knock at your head.)

tianzhuwoye, on Nov 18 2005, 09:49 PM, said:

Here’s a few of the changes usually associated with some of the bigger names:

Donggo: 蕫 Dong
Feimo/ Magiya: 马 Ma
Fuca: 富/ 傅 Fu
Guuwalgiya: 关 Guan
Heseri: 赫 He
Irgen Gioro: 赵 Zhao, 邵 Shao
Kija: 齐 Qi
(Yehe) Nara: 那 Na
Niohuru: 郎 Lang
Sakda: 唐 Tang
Samara: 蔡 Cai
Socoro: 索 Suo
Suumuru: 舒 Shu
Tunggiya: 佟 Tong
Ujala: 吴 Wu
Wanyan/Wanggiya: 王 Wang

There's a bunch more but for the most part, adopted names were just based on phonetics. Niohuru comes from niohe, meaning 'wolf.'

I see that Wanyan is the royal surname of the "Gold dynasty". The strangest things is: why is Sakda 唐? Is it a meaning translation?
And how is "Ai-xin-jue-luo" supposed to be (the real Manchu and the "Han style")?

[tianzhuwoye]

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I see that Wanyan is the royal surname of the "Gold dynasty". The strangest things is: why is Sakda 唐? Is it a meaning translation?

Yeah that one bothers me, too. Sakda usually means like 'old man.' Interestingly enough, there are also people surnamed 藏 today that claim decent from the Sakda, so it might be a weird nasalization thing? You'd probably be able to do more with that than I could.

Also, Wanyan>Wanggiya is supposed to be a continuous line.

Quote

And how is "Ai-xin-jue-luo" supposed to be (the real Manchu and the "Han style")?

This is a long-standing approximation for Aisin Gioro, where Aisin means 'gold' and is supposed to be a direct reference to the Jin Empire, the 'Aisin Gurun' in both Manchu and Jurchen. Nurgaci presented himself as a Tunggiya before he made this up.

[wlee15]

It is also important to note that the Republic established that anyone with banner status at the end of the Qing dynasty would be considered to be Manchu.

[naruwan]

qrasy, on Nov 19 2005, 03:31 AM, said:

how is the pattern? I also don't believe there are more than 50%.
(oops, don't spam this topic, you can't do more than adding the link to your topic or the topic starter will knock at your head.)

I see that Wanyan is the royal surname of the "Gold dynasty". The strangest things is: why is Sakda 唐? Is it a meaning translation?
And how is "Ai-xin-jue-luo" supposed to be (the real Manchu and the "Han style")?

sinolization requires adaption of Chinaese names. All Taiwanese people who lived through the Japanese occupation times has more than 2 names in their life times. For aboriginals who still retained their language, it'd be more than 3. Even my grandfather had a Japanese name.

In Chinese history, there were last names such as 宇文，慕容，禿頭 and so on. I don't think these last name dissapeared because they all died out. They were simply forced under social pressure to change and dispose of their original identity.

As for the case for the Manchurians. In no more than 3 or 4 generations, they would probably forget that they were Manchurians and not Han. Less than 100 years ago there were still people who spoke Manchurian. And now, the language is dying.

Much of the same story is played over and over again.

I just want to point out 漢化 sinolization is not as romantic as most Chinese people tend to think of it.

There are weird last names such as 寸 and so on. What is interesting about the last name adopted by Taiwanese aboriginal is many Taiwanese aboriginals don't have a last name.

Some of them use their father's name as their last name. Very similar practice to the kings of 南紹 NanShao.

Some of them identifies a name of their ancetrial hut.

Forcing the adaption of Han names and complete disregard of any aboriginal names is essentially what broke the traditions, life styles, unity and identity of the Taiwanese aboriginals.

As is to the Manchurians.

[qrasy]

tianzhuwoye, on Nov 19 2005, 07:59 PM, said:

Yeah that one bothers me, too. Sakda usually means like 'old man.' Interestingly enough, there are also people surnamed 藏 today that claim decent from the Sakda, so it might be a weird nasalization thing? You'd probably be able to do more with that than I could.

So is it also the origin of Lao 老 of Lao She 老舍?

Quote

Also, Wanyan>Wanggiya is supposed to be a continuous line.

You mean, the two surnames trace the same origin?

Quote

Nurgaci presented himself as a Tunggiya before he made this up.

Does that mean that nowadays the Aisin Gioro also change into 佟? Or they are special group that preserve their names?

naruwan, on Nov 20 2005, 04:23 PM, said:

sinolization requires adaption of Chinaese names. All Taiwanese people who lived through the Japanese occupation times has more than 2 names in their life times. For aboriginals who still retained their language, it'd be more than 3. Even my grandfather had a Japanese name.

About the Japanese name, is it real Japanese name or just reading Chinese name in Japanese way?

Quote

In Chinese history, there were last names such as 宇文，慕容，禿頭 and so on. I don't think these last name dissapeared because they all died out. They were simply forced under social pressure to change and dispose of their original identity.

How about the Xianbei Kings who changed name? They are rulers why do they want to change their names?

Quote

There are weird last names such as 寸 and so on. What is interesting about the last name adopted by Taiwanese aboriginal is many Taiwanese aboriginals don't have a last name.

And where is your thread?

[naruwan]

qrasy, on Nov 20 2005, 03:41 AM, said:

So is it also the origin of Lao 老 of Lao She 老舍?

You mean, the two surnames trace the same origin?

Does that mean that nowadays the Aisin Gioro also change into 佟? Or they are special group that preserve their names?
About the Japanese name, is it real Japanese name or just reading Chinese name in Japanese way?

How about the Xianbei Kings who changed name? They are rulers why do they want to change their names?

And where is your thread?

Real Japanese names. To give you a few example:

The daughter of Dadao Nogan, one of the chefs who rebelled against the Japanese in Wusha incident, who was selected by the Japanese to be transformed into a Japanese alone with other Seediq kids.

Her Seediq name is 娥嬪‧塔達歐 Obin.Dadao. (Note she took her dad's name as her last name. You'll know then that her grandfather's name was Nogan)

Her Japanese name is 高山初子. She was paired up to marry 花崗二郎 (Also Seediq Aboriginal, who worked as a police). And the famous 花崗一郎 actually has no blood relations with 花崗二郎.... the Japanese simply picked a last name, and assigned numbers to the kids. Toward the end of the Japanese rule, when the 皇民化 began, EVERY Taiwanese were forced to adapt a Japanese name.

After KMT occupied Taiwan, Obin Dadao was forced to adapt her third name, a Chinese name, 高彩雲. Right before she died she said in the interview, if she could, she wants to change her name back to Obin. Dadao.

When the government policy finally changed so that Aboriginals can use their tribal name on Identifications in 1995, she already passed away.

My thread was here http://www.chinahist...?showtopic=2546

A list of weird last names for Aboriginals, most assigned for no reason:

In 1946, the KMT government enforced for every person to adapt a Chinese name. Sometimes the officials just gave out names at ransdom, often condacending. Many families end up with different last names from the Dad to the Mom to the Sisters and brothers.

潘 Because Aboriginals were refered to as 番 "Barbarians"

偕

哀

豐

剛

秋

勤

日

風

根

楓

獅

愛

電

筆

鹽

停

增

全

Here is a short list of what the newspaper article listed of Aboriginal weird names.

I can add a few

寸

熱

野

[MengTzu]

Was there a policy during Qing dynasty that commanded Manchurians who were not related to the imperial family to adopt Han surnames?

[tianzhuwoye]

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So is it also the origin of Lao 老 of Lao She 老舍?

Lao She was from the Suumuru family, and 老舍 was just his styled name. Incidentally, some Suumuru have also picked up 穆 as a surname.

Quote

You mean, the two surnames trace the same origin?

Yeah, the Wanggiya and the Jin Wanyan are supposed to be the same family. Something maybe interesting that also might put another spin on the 'Sinification destroys us' argument is that -giya suffix that shows up in a bunch of Manchu names. It's usually written as 佳 (佟佳, etc) but, espcially when added to the kinds of syllables it usually appears with (Ma-giya, Wang-giya, Yang-giya, Joogiya 赵佳), it really starts to feel a lot like 家. Manchus with Korean last names do a similar thing with the syllable -ja (札), with examples like the Hanja, Yanja, the Cuija (written 吹札) and the Kija 祁札 above. I wish I knew which way these things were going, how many were conveniences adopted by the Jurchens and early Manchus in their dealings with the highly formalized Ming and Joseon courts, which of these names were conferred honorary titles that got picked up (like the Li family of the early Jianzhou period, which shifted from Gurun- probably made up on the spot itself- during the struggle with Mongke Temur over Korean trade), which were adopted much later, etc, but I don't. The Jurchen and early Manchu concept of 'family' was of course very different from how it was understood and idealized in Joseon and the Ming Empire, and it makes you wonder whether or not 'Sinification' and 'being included in written history' are one and the same.

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Was there a policy during Qing dynasty that commanded Manchurians who were not related to the imperial family to adopt Han surnames?

I'm gonna guess not. Going back to the different notions of family, early on at least, it was forbidden to use a 'Han-styled' surname, as in putting the clan or whatever title before a given name. Things you see today like 爱新觉罗玄烨 'Aisin Gioro Hiowanyei' would've been unthinkable at the time. Hanerizing a banner family for example would've worked against the logic here.

Guess another question to ask now is how many of these are 'Manchurized Han' names.

Quote

Does that mean that nowadays the Aisin Gioro also change into 佟? Or they are special group that preserve their names?

People claiming to be Aisin Gioro tend to use all four characters today now that it's okay to admit that that's your background. 金 has been an alternative since it has the same meaning as aisin. A number of people from other Manchu families with access to these things are also reviving the older clan names, but I wouldn't say this is widespread yet.

[MengTzu]

tianzhuwoye, on Nov 20 2005, 12:54 PM, said:

I'm gonna guess not. Going back to the different notions of family, early on at least, it was forbidden to use a 'Han-styled' surname, as in putting the clan or whatever title before a given name. Things you see today like 爱新觉罗玄烨 'Aisin Gioro Hiowanyei' would've been unthinkable at the time. Hanerizing a banner family for example would've worked against the logic here.

Guess another question to ask now is how many of these are 'Manchurized Han' names.

Actually my next questions are this: how many Manchurians adopted Han surnames? Why did they adopt Han surnames?

[Sephodwyrm]

Easy. Suppose your grandfather killed 30 people of a particular ethnicity, and your father ruled over these people. After which these people rose up and created their own government with you living under it. Would you continue to carry vestiges that would remind these people of the stuff that your granddaddy did?

Or lets put it simply, why would Manchus cut off their queues as well?