[General_Zhaoyun]

I'm always fascinated by how chinese languages evolved. It's kinda interesting to know that the spoken han-language 1000 year ago is different from the Mandarin that we spoke of. Today's Mandarin came from the Modern chinese dating 11th century onwards.

Old chinese - before 800 to 300 BC
Middle chinese - 300 BC to 1100 AD
Modern chinese - 1100 to today

Ever since the past (from Qin dynasty onwards), a chinese often had 2 languages existing: their own mother tongue dialect plus a common language for all chinese. The common language could be the old chinese-language. There were no conflict between these languages. The common language was often used by the imperial court and in the capital. For dialects, it was spoken in a local region and in common daily lifes.

It's kinda interesting to note that out of the 7 major dialects, the north spoke mostly Mandarin, while the 6 other dialects such as Wu, Yue, Min, Kejia, Gan, Xiang are all in the south below Yang Tze river. How were these dialects developed?

I've watched a lecture on TV at Phoenix channel last Saturday by a Professor who talked about the history of chinese dialects. He said that all the 7 major dialects were evolved from the old chinese (before 800 to 300 BC). Due to several mass migration of chinese towards south during history and b'cos of the han-language mixing with that of other indigeneous people in the south, many dialects in the south evolved.


Cantonese
This han dialect was evolved when Qinshihuang sent troops to invade Guangdong province (during Qing dynasty). About 50,000 chinese troops were stationed in Guangdong and they inter-mixed with the indigenous Yue people there, and formed a new dialect language that we called "Cantonese".

Wu
During 3 kingdoms, Wu was one the state in the south-east. There was mass migration of chinese from the north to the region of today's Jiangsu province. Bringing their old han-language and mixing with the indigenous population, they formed the earliest Wu dialect.

Min
Min seemed to be derived from the Wu dialect.

As for other dialect's history and origin, I'm not too sure ..

Any other comments is appreciated.

[nishishei]

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Wu
During 3 kingdoms, Wu was one the state in the south-east. There was mass migration of chinese from the north to the region of today's Jiangsu province. Bringing their old han-language and mixing with the indigenous population, they formed the earliest Wu dialect.

Wu dialects are much older than Three Kingdoms period. In fact their historical development stems directly from the original language spoken in Wu-Yue and Chu Kingdoms during pre-Qin periods. Migrations from the north also occurred throughout Chinese history as early as during the Spring and Autumn period. China never had a unified "Old Han spoken language" before and after the Qin (until 20th century).

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This han dialect was evolved when Qinshihuang sent troops to invade Guangdong province (during Qin dynasty). About 50,000 chinese troops were stationed in Guangdong and they inter-mixed with the indigenous Yue people there, and formed a new dialect language that we called "Cantonese".

The Wu dialects are also most certainly older in Sinitic development than the Cantonese dialects. Wu dialects still contain voiced consonants (a characteristic of an earlier from of Middle Chinese), while Cantonese and Mandarin do not.

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Today's Mandarin came from the Modern chinese dating 11th century onwards.

It's funny you do not mention how Mandarin became what it is today. For sure, there was no Modern Chinese in the 11th century.

[General_Zhaoyun]

Hey.. thanks for the mentioning about the history of Wu dialect. I'm keen in learning more history about chinese dialects.

Anyway, I'm not well-informed about the history of Mandarin. I read it somewhere that today's Mandarin was a result of a combination of the "Modern chinese dating from 11th century" plus some influence from Khitan, Mongolian and Manchu Language as a result of these northern nomad's invasion and conquest of northern China.

If you know more about the history of Mandarin dialect, please let me know

[TongShanThaiHiung]

The Hakka dialect is one of the oldest chinese dialect if not the oldest.It can be traced back to late Shang and early Zhou dynasty.And many language scholars verifies that Hakka dialect is the closest to Central Plains' ancient rhyme.Hakka dialect was spoken by most peasants and farmers at least in Shanxi,Henan and eastern/northeastern Shaanxi region in ancient China before jin dynasty collapse during 4 century a.d. and Hakka people started to migrate southward.

[heyniceboard]

TongShanThaiHiung, on Aug 25 2004, 02:49 PM, said:

The Hakka dialect is one of the oldest chinese dialect if not the oldest.It can be traced back to late Shang and early Zhou dynasty.And many language scholars verifies that Hakka dialect is the closest to Central Plains' ancient rhyme.Hakka dialect was spoken by most peasants and farmers at least in Shanxi,Henan and eastern/northeastern Shaanxi region in ancient China before jin dynasty collapse during 4 century a.d. and Hakka people started to migrate southward.

Hakka cannot be traced to late Shang, as the Yin-Shang Dynasty originated from Eastern China and not of the Central Plains region. The Hakka people also migrated south far later than 4th century, otherwise the established Sinitic Cantonese population wouldn't have called the Hakkas "Guest People." The Hakka language is closer to Mandarin than Cantonese or Middle Chinese, it doesn't have many elements that are found in older forms of Chinese. And it doesn't rhyme that well to Middle Chinese.

[TongShanThaiHiung]

Actually according to the World Hakka Association,Hakka dialect can be traced back to as early as Spring and Autumn period or Warring States era.I don't believe that Hakka dialect originated around or after Song dynasty because some language scholars had already verified that it is closest to ancient rhyme of old central plains.

Maybe Meixian Hakka is closer to Mandarin than Cantonese or middle chinese.It has 6 tones while hakka dialect in some certain areas somewhere between Guangdong and Fujian area only has 5 tones.There are also Hakka dialect that has 7 tones which i think around eastern Guangdong.

Those Hakka dialect have many different elements compared to the standard Hakka which people from Meixian speak.By the way,my grandfather speak rather different Hakka compared to my other relative because of his northern origin.The one that he spoke was somehow close to the few ten thousands Hakka people living in Shanxi region today.Perhaps of the Jin dialect influence.But my grandfather was from Hebei province.

[chuck228]

TongShanThaiHiung, on Aug 25 2004, 08:49 AM, said:

The Hakka dialect is one of the oldest chinese dialect if not the oldest.It can be traced back to late Shang and early Zhou dynasty.And many language scholars verifies that Hakka dialect is the closest to Central Plains' ancient rhyme.Hakka dialect was spoken by most peasants and farmers at least in Shanxi,Henan and eastern/northeastern Shaanxi region in ancient China before jin dynasty collapse during 4 century a.d. and Hakka people started to migrate southward.
<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I watched a documentary about Shaolin temple (in Henan), and one of the senior warrior monk was explaining some moves to his disciples, he is speaking mandarin of course. But what was interesting to me, I heard him say " an niung " to mean "like this/ in this manner", which I always thought was a hakka expression. Is there shared similarities between the speech in Henan and Hakka? given the historical roots mentioned?

[Lianbang Diaocha Ju]

General_Zhaoyun, on Aug 25 2004, 02:36 AM, said:

I'm always fascinated by how chinese languages evolved. It's kinda interesting to know that the spoken han-language 1000 year ago is different from the Mandarin that we spoke of. Today's Mandarin came from the Modern chinese dating 11th century onwards.

Old chinese  - before 800 to 300 BC
Middle chinese - 300 BC to 1100 AD
Modern chinese - 1100 to today

Ever since the past (from Qin dynasty onwards), a chinese often had 2 languages existing: their own mother tongue dialect plus a common language for all chinese. The common language could be the old chinese-language.  There were no conflict between these languages. The common language was often used by the imperial court and in the capital. For dialects, it was spoken in a local region and in common daily lifes.

It's kinda interesting to note that out of the 7 major dialects, the north spoke mostly Mandarin, while the 6 other dialects such as Wu, Yue, Min, Kejia, Gan, Xiang are all in the south below Yang Tze river. How were these dialects developed?

I've watched a lecture on TV at Phoenix channel last Saturday by a Professor who talked about the history of chinese dialects. He said that all the 7 major dialects were evolved from the old chinese (before 800 to 300 BC). Due to several mass migration of chinese towards south during history and b'cos of the han-language mixing with that of other indigeneous people in the south, many dialects in the south evolved.
Cantonese
This han dialect was evolved when Qinshihuang sent troops to invade Guangdong province (during Qing dynasty). About 50,000 chinese troops were stationed in Guangdong and they inter-mixed with the indigenous Yue people there, and formed a new dialect language that we called "Cantonese".

Wu
During 3 kingdoms, Wu was one the state in the south-east. There was mass migration of chinese from the north to the region of today's Jiangsu province. Bringing their old han-language and mixing with the indigenous population, they formed the earliest Wu dialect.

Min
Min seemed to be derived from the Wu dialect.

As for other dialect's history and origin, I'm not too sure ..

Any other comments is appreciated.
<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

well i suppose it is interesting. but i wonder how different languages itself evolve into entirely differently ones?

for example, english originally came from the present day country of england. then they colonized north america and those colonies formed together as one and became independant. but they still spoke english and still do today. though the english of the british and the americans is not entirely the same, we know we speak english and can understand each other. and i'm sure taiwanese,mainland chinese, and singaporeans,live away from each other, but i'm sure they can understand one another as they speak the same language.

did it take a really long time for these new dialects to be formed from one language?

ciao!

[nishishei]

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did it take a really long time for these new dialects to be formed from one language?

Well we can also see how Latin has become French, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Catalan, etc. Like the Romance languages, the Chinese languages started developing differently by also mixing with indigenous languages. For example French is basically Latin with heavy Gaelic and Germanic influences, very very very few French today speak the ancient Celtic language, but it has left a mark on the Latin-derived French language today. Since the Chinese didn't have a phonetic script and only the Chinese officials kept records, indigenous languages are not very well known. To call the Sinitic languages "dialects" is a huge misnomer only popularized in the 20th century. Before 1900's, the Chinese word 方言 fangyan, didn't mean dialects, but languages in general (roughly: 地方语言). The Qing government even called English a 方言 fangyan.

[bloodmerchant]

Generally there are two main theories for the formation of Wu Chinese:

1) early development from proto-Sinitic during Warring States period. I don't even know if modern Wu is actually a descendant language of ancient WuYue language.

2) an early variant of Middle Chinese that split during the fall of Western Jin, where mass waves of Northern Han people fled south in response to the Five Hu (Wuhu peoples) revolt, so these people split off and moved south, some moving to Fujian, others moving to Jiangnan. As a result, Wu Chinese is more likely to be a descendant of early Middle Chinese spoken during the Jin dynasty by these new Northern Han settlers in Jiangnan.

I would think that 2) would be a bit more plausible, since Wu is more likely to be descended from EMC, but 1) is somewhat vague. But it could happen, but even if it did, the 1) language would be a substrate of 2).

If I'm not wrong, Primitive Mandarin first became attested only through the rime book Zhongyuan Yinyun 中原音韻 during the late Yuan dynasty.

[mrclub]

They say Min Chinese evolved from Old Chinese. Can't agree on it since Old Chinese sounds so different from Min Chinese.
Probably a mixture with Min people's language

[calibre2001]

I'm confused. When you guys say old mandarin, do you mean mandarin dialects (such as sichuanese) or today's mandarin? Or do you guys mean the dialect that was elected as the common dialect for communication?

Do we call the 白話 language used in 西遊記 mandarin?

If so it makes me wonder how people spoke one language yet wrote mandarin in the old days.

[mrclub]

calibre2001, on 14 April 2010 - 03:50 AM, said:

I'm confused. When you guys say old mandarin, do you mean mandarin dialects (such as sichuanese) or today's mandarin? Or do you guys mean the dialect that was elected as the common dialect for communication?

Do we call the 白話 language used in 西遊記 mandarin?

If so it makes me wonder how people spoke one language yet wrote mandarin in the old days.

No no no no no.
Old Chinese refers to the Chinese language used during the ancient times. Long long time ago, think is before Three Kingdoms period.

Please don't confuse Old Chinese with today's Mandarin dialects or today's Putonghua

[General_Zhaoyun]

calibre2001, on 14 April 2010 - 03:50 AM, said:

I'm confused. When you guys say old mandarin, do you mean mandarin dialects (such as sichuanese) or today's mandarin? Or do you guys mean the dialect that was elected as the common dialect for communication?

There is no such thing as "old Mandarin". The modern "Mandarin" that we call today is only about 300-400 years old based on Beijing dialect. It has actually evolved from "Nanjing Mandarin" spoken during Ming dynasty, but had actually evolved into today's modern Mandarin during the 18th century because of Manchu court official's own way and attempt in speaking Nanjing Mandarin.

The "old Chinese 古汉语" refers to the archaic Chinese language spoken before Han dynasty, in particular during Spring/Autumn and Warring States period. The sounds and its pronunciations are generally 'lost', but its written form are preserved in Classical Chinese (literary Chinese) writings.

If one wants to refer to the written form of "Old Chinese", one can simply refer to Classical Chinese writings such as Confucian classics.

E.g. of Old Chinese:

Old Chinese (Classical Chinese): 喬治·華盛頓，維珍尼亞人也。 (George Washington is a person from virginia)

Modern Baihua Chinese (Mandarin) : 喬治·華盛頓是維珍尼亞人。

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Do we call the 白話 language used in 西遊記 mandarin?

My guess is that the language used in Xiyouji 西遊記 (Journey to the West) is that it is based on Nanjing Mandarin, since it is a Ming dynasty novel. The official language of Ming dynasty is Nanjing Mandarin. There are some differences between Nanjing Mandarin of Ming dynasty and today's Beijing Mandarin.

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If so it makes me wonder how people spoke one language yet wrote mandarin in the old days.

There was no 'official modern Mandarin writing' (白话文） until early 20th century. The ancient Chinese wrote in Classical Chinese, standardized for use for over 2,000 years. They don't write what they speak, but merely write Classical Chinese for bridging the differences between different Chinese language/dialects.

The Chinese did not speak a single language in ancient times. Instead, each region spoke different languages/dialects just like what it is today. But the 'official language' will be based on the language spoken in the court (government), which is often known as "Mandarin". During the Ming dynasty, the official language was based on Nanjing Mandarin. During the late Qing dynasty, it was based on Beijing Mandarin.

But in ancient times, no-one will write something based on what is spoken. For instance, during Qing dynasty, if I'm a court official and I speak Mandarin in court, I will not write something based on what I speak word by word. Instead, I will write in Classical Chinese (the written form used in Old Chinese and Middle Chinese), which is different from what I speak colloquially. From 3rd century onwards, Classical Chinese (which was based on old Chinese 古汉语) became essentially a written language in China, but it is not a spoken language.

The Classical Chinese writing (literary Chinese) serves to bridge the different spoken languages/dialects in China. It's the common written form used in China for 2,000 years. Even if Chinese speaks different languages such as Mandarin, Hokkien, Teochew etc, they will all be able to read Classical Chinese writing because it was the standard written form for communication and education in ancient China.

Thus, if I'm a Hokkien speaker based in Fujian province, I will only learn Classical Chinese in school and will only write Classical Chinese for any official documents. I will read Classical Chinese writing using Hokkien pronunciation and when this document is sent to Beijing, the Beijing speakers will try to read the Classical Chinese writing using Mandarin pronunciations, but everyone will be able to understand it, because it is the similar writing.

E.g. of Classical Chinese writing is as follow:

美國初立，諸州各自為政，無有元首，政不通，人不和，速亡之危日甚。

Translation into today's modern Baihua 白话 Mandarin Chinese writing:

美国在立国之初，每个州都自行管理，没有一个元首，政策不能通行，人们相处不合，日趋陷入消亡的危机。

(In the start of America's foundation, every state governed itself independently, there is no single head of country, the policy were unable to be implemented, people did not get along well. The country went into a dangerous period of demise )

[qrasy]

bloodmerchant, on 13 April 2010 - 11:51 PM, said:

If I'm not wrong, Primitive Mandarin first became attested only through the rime book Zhongyuan Yinyun 中原音韻 during the late Yuan dynasty.

The "introduction" part of 中原音韻 mentioned about the concerns about "strange" (to the writer) rhyming practises of Northerners during the Yuan period, for example the "mixing" of rhymes caused by the loss of -ptk endings.

mrclub, on 14 April 2010 - 01:52 AM, said:

They say Min Chinese evolved from Old Chinese. Can't agree on it since Old Chinese sounds so different from Min Chinese.

Well, every type of Chinese today evolved from Old Chinese. It's simply that the way of evolution is very long and twisted; repeated "major changes" caused them to not sound like each other.
Min languages are taken especially because of a dominance from a layer (or layers) that don't really fit Sui/Tang periods, but that doesn't make them "sound more like Old Chinese than the rest of Chinese". Afterall, branching out earlier doesn't guarantee more similarity. Thinking again, the time of separation from Old Chinese is the same with the rest of Chinese (while mutation rate is not really constant).

[Talking about when Min branched.. I doubt we could verify when it's; but Wei-Jin periods, while coming before Sui/Tang, already seem to show quite much evolution into Middle Chinese]

calibre2001, on 14 April 2010 - 03:50 AM, said:

I'm confused. When you guys say old mandarin, do you mean mandarin dialects (such as sichuanese) or today's mandarin? Or do you guys mean the dialect that was elected as the common dialect for communication?

I guess it's that, they call it that way after they investigate some past forms of Chinese and concluded that "this form is closer to Mandarin than the rest of modern Chinese".

General_Zhaoyun, on 14 April 2010 - 04:59 AM, said:

If one wants to refer to the written form of "Old Chinese", one can simply refer to Classical Chinese writings such as Confucian classics.

E.g. of Old Chinese:

Old Chinese (Classical Chinese): 喬治·華盛頓，維珍尼亞人也。 (George Washington is a person from virginia)

Modern Baihua Chinese (Mandarin) : 喬治·華盛頓是維珍尼亞人。

This may grammatically be Old Chinese, however, "喬治·華盛頓" and "維珍尼亞" was made in modern Chinese (most likely Mandarin), therefore is only supposed to make sense when read in modern Chinese. "喬治" doesn't make good sense when read in Cantonese (that's why Hongkongers use 佐治 instead) and Minnan (assuming you read "George" in Modern English); and "華盛頓" don't fit into Middle Chinese.
Similar things often occur with other transliteration of foreign terms.
For America, if I remember correctly "美" was not used until recently; early records was more like "芈" (or was it "咩"?).

This post has been edited by qrasy: 14 April 2010 - 05:53 AM