[Tyler]

Who was the leader of the Boxer rebellion. What was the Boxer rebellion's goals I remember hearing something like "to drive out foreingers". And why did they call it the Boxer Rebellion whenever I hear that I think of the other kind of Boxers :huh: .

[General_Zhaoyun]

They were kind of boxers.. and their aim is to drive out the rebellions..

Here are some info about the rebellion from Encarta:

Boxer Rebellion

Boxer Rebellion, Chinese nationalist uprising against foreigners, the representatives of alien powers, and Chinese Christians in 1900. Expulsion of all foreigners from China was the ultimate objective of the uprising. In 1899 a secret society of Chinese called the Yihe Quan (Righteous and Harmonious Fists), known by Westerners as Boxers because of their martial arts rituals which they believed made them invulnerable to bullets, began a campaign of terror against Christian missionaries in the north-eastern provinces. Although the Boxers were officially denounced, they were secretly supported by many of the royal court, including the dowager empress Cixi. Economic and political exploitation of China by various Western powers and Japan and humiliating military defeats inflicted by Great Britain in the Opium Wars (1839-1842, 1856-1860) and by Japan in the Sino-Japanese War (1894-1895) were the main causes of Chinese resentment, as well as general economic depression.

The terrorist activities of the Boxer society gradually increased during 1899, with Boxer bands attacking Christians on sight. When these bands entered the Chinese capital Beijing, the foreign powers dispatched a small relief column from Tianjin to secure their interests and citizens in the capital. On June 13 Cixi ordered imperial troops to turn back this column, and the ensuing crisis culminated on June 18, 1900, in a general anti-foreign uprising in Beijing. Many foreigners and others took refuge in the part of the city where the foreign legations were located; the area was placed under siege by the rebels. A larger relief expedition consisting of British, French, Japanese, Russian, German, and American troops relieved the besieged quarter and occupied Beijing on August 14, 1900. Cixi and her court fled to Xi'an. The relief forces retained possession of the city, looting and punishing anti-foreign action, until a peace treaty was signed on September 7, 1901. By the terms of the treaty the Chinese were required to pay, over a period of 40 years, a vast indemnity. Other treaty provisions included commercial concessions and the right to station foreign troops to guard the legations in Beijing and to maintain a clear corridor from Beijing to the coast. Despite efforts by the United States to stop further territorial encroachment, Russia extended its sphere of influence in Dongbei during the rebellion, a policy which culminated in the Russo-Japanese War (1904-1905).

Some governments, notably Great Britain and the United States, tried to mitigate the indemnity payments by using them to finance scholarships for Chinese students. In China, the defeat further discredited the ruling Qing dynasty and accelerated political developments towards revolution.


Microsoft ® Encarta ® Encyclopedia 2003. © 1993-2002 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.

[Gweilo]

Do you guys think that old movie 55 Days In Peking was historically accurate? The general events seem right, and I know the costumes worn by the US Marines were accurate (or at least Charlton Heston says so in his memoirs), but I was wondering how much of the detail of the siege was authentic.

[RollingWave]

Moved because this rebellion by any form of measurement happend within the Qing dynasty

[astralis]

gweilo,

in terms of entertainment, 55 days in peking is good, but in terms of history, the movie is a mess.

why?

-chinese characters are all played by caucasians with "asian face"
-ignores brutality on the european side with indiscriminate shooting of both boxers and non-boxers
-ignores brutality on the european side after the sack of peking, with rape and pillage
-it was the germans that led the international force, not the americans/british
-german minister was killed by a lone officer and not killed by a mob

for what it is, it was a good movie for its times, post-korean and pre-vietnam war.

[Gweilo]

astralis, thanks for those comments, that is exactly the type of stuff I was hoping to get in responses.

Question: did the boxers really use a siege tower to attempt to breach the legation's defense wall? That part of the movie also seemed a bit unbelievable to me, for the era.

[astralis]

gweilo,

apparently an artillery tower of some sort WAS used. check the rest of this article out, it's quite an interesting read.

"In the fighting along the wall, the American Marines held positions back-to-back with the German troops, and each repulsed a strong Chinese hand-to-hand attack before the enemy gave up direct frontal assaults.

Resorting to artillery to beat down the defenders, the Chinese delivered a severe bombardment on July 1 forcing evacuation of a part of the wall. At the insistence of Captain Myers the foreign troops quickly moved back into the breach before the Chinese discovered the retreat and thus probably averted a complete defeat and massacre of the inhabitants of the legations had the enemy gained access to the compound.

Failing both in frontal assault and in bombardment, the Chinese turned to stratagem. They succeeded in setting up a tower in such a manner as to rake the Marines with enfilading fire. His position being untenable with the Chinese on his flank, Captain Hall organized his Marines and a small number of other foreign troops into a surprise attack on the night of July 2 which took the Chinese tower and stopped the immediate threat. As it later developed, this raid so demoralized the Chinese that, except for sniping, the fighting at Beijing practically ceased. An armistice was signed on July 16, 1900, and the situation was generally quiet until a relief column arrived."

http://www.artpoliti..._rebellion.html

[Tyler]

A seige tower those things were around in 230AD if not sooner. What an outdated tatic :lol: .

[Gweilo]

Very cool info, thanks astralis. :)

[Liang Jieming]

All the reports of the survivors of the siege of the foreign legation in Beijing repeatedly ridiculed the Chinese for being such poor shots that they almost always missed their targets. That observation is what you see in most books today.

Were the Chinese really such poor shots? It's not like they've never had guns before since guns have been around since the Ming. Were they ordered to fire high instead and avoid hitting the foreigners? These were regular Qing army troops and not boxers who besieged the city. The Empress Dowager had ordered the siege in support of the boxers, playing both sides.

Jieming

[caocao74]

In a book I read a few years ago (the name evades me and I left it in Korea!), the international units that took the brunt of the fighting were the Japanese stationed at a church beyond the limits of the legations. They were looked down upon as much as the Chinese by the European and US families, despite facing more assaults against the battered church and its inhabitants (mainly Chinese Christians). In the meantime, rather ridiculously, within the legations quarter, supplies were limited but there were still the usual dinner parties.
Regarding the 'Boxers' who though they were immune to bullets now. When shot, how was this perceived? Was it seen as a failure in their own personal spirit (i.e, he wasn't faithful enough so was shot) or was it seen as a failing in the belief they followed (i.e, it let them down)?

[astralis]

Liang Jieming,

no, i haven't read about any such order. however, what is known is that ever since the disastrous defeat of the qing armies in the sino-japanese war of 1895, training, moral, procuring of equipment- all went down horribly, especially after empress dowager cixi had her coup-detat. after the boxer rebellion, reflecting on the truly pathetic nature of the chinese armies at the time, there was a complete revamp which developed into the fairly competent New Army.

caocao74,

Quote

Regarding the 'Boxers' who though they were immune to bullets now. When shot, how was this perceived? Was it seen as a failure in their own personal spirit (i.e, he wasn't faithful enough so was shot) or was it seen as a failing in the belief they followed (i.e, it let them down)?

when the movement first started to face combat, the former was widely felt to be the truth. of course, after the unsuccessful seige of the legation and the international relief force coming in, the latter quickly became the case that's why after the boxer rebellion you don't really see any more of these beliefs that martial arts could make you invulnerable to bullets!!

actually, i've read that in the beginning, when the movement first developed this idea (when it went from the Big Sword Society to the Boxer), they actually tested it out by firing a few antiquated CHINESE fire-arms at themselves. chinese powder being of lower quality, the fire-arms themselves being horrible, as well as the bullets, there were quite a few incidences where the bullet had no more power than a BB round and would thus actually do the tester no harm!!

...unfortunately for them, that didn't prove to be the case in the battlefield.

[Liang Jieming]

astralis, on Dec 3 2004, 07:18 AM, said:

Liang Jieming,

no, i haven't read about any such order. however, what is known is that ever since the disastrous defeat of the qing armies in the sino-japanese war of 1895, training, moral, procuring of equipment- all went down horribly, especially after empress dowager cixi had her coup-detat. after the boxer rebellion, reflecting on the truly pathetic nature of the chinese armies at the time, there was a complete revamp which developed into the fairly competent New Army.

Actually this theory came to me from a friend who is a historian/history teacher in the US, who mentioned that from his research, he is increasingly convinced that the General of the Qing troops attacking the foreign troops defied orders and gave his troops orders to shoot high so as not to further anger the foreigners and thus "save" China from a greater humiliation, because the westerners were united at the moment. I'm not sure how valid his theory is but he is quite convinced that the many western reports of lousy shooting skills by Qing troops is baseless and untrue.

Jieming

[astralis]

interesting. i've done some research into the qing armies at that time as well, even when they demonstrated remarkable competence (see battle of pyongyang, sino-japanese war) they weren't notable so much for their accuracy as their determination and volume of fire.

by the way, does anyone have any information on the sect the boxers arose from- the da dao hui (big sword society)?

[Gweilo]

I just finished reading The Boxer Rebellion by Diana Preston. I highly recommend this book if you want a detailed account of the events leading up to, during, and subsequent to the Boxer Rebellion. It's full of detailed accounts from journals, diaries, and memoirs of the people who were there.