[jiangji]

Emperor Cheng hua and Hongzhi was probably one of the great Emperor from Ming dynasty. Does anyone have more info on them?

This post has been edited by jiangji: 14 December 2005 - 07:30 PM

[highlander]

Personally i will not regard Emperor Cheng Hua as one of the great emperors but instead one of the worst of the Ming Dynasty as he had relied too greatly on the Eunuchs especially when he established 西產and further appointed the Eunuch 汪直 as its adminstrator. Many just and innocent officials and civilians were imprisoned and executed because of this.

Whereas Emperor Hongzhi kept the Eunuchs in check and never allowed them to interfere in court matters. Plus Hong Zhi encouraged his officials to raise doubts/questions/ or even correct him 進揀 when necessary, similar to what the great Tang Tai Zong Li Shi Ming did when he became the Emperor. The only thing was Hongzhi lived too short a life, IMO he can be listed as one of the better emperors but not great and infact he was the last of the better emperors of the Ming Dynasty as after he died, the rest of the Ming emperors were practically good for nothing.

[jiangji]

highlander, on Dec 20 2005, 03:39 AM, said:

Personally i will not regard Emperor Cheng Hua as one of the great emperors but instead one of the worst of the Ming Dynasty as he had relied too greatly on the Eunuchs especially when he established 西產and further appointed the Eunuch 汪直 as its adminstrator. Many just and innocent officials and civilians were imprisoned and executed because of this.

I think his early reign was good until he meet the Lady Wan and started to rely on Eunuchs. I think the Qing do consider him as one of the good Emperor.

[highlander]

jiangji, on Dec 20 2005, 12:22 PM, said:

I think his early reign was good until he meet the Lady Wan and started to rely on Eunuchs. I think the Qing do consider him as one of the good Emperor.

Nevertheless, there's much more harm done as compared to any good Cheng Hua Emperor might have done for the Ming Dynasty. The fact is he wasn't a hardworking enough emperor to be justified as a "good" emperor and the fact that he allowed so much injustice to happen shows for itself.

This post has been edited by highlander: 30 December 2005 - 02:21 AM

[Type98G]

I interested to know why the other Ming emperors were good for nothing

This post has been edited by Type98G: 20 December 2005 - 07:23 AM

[jiangji]

Type98G, on Dec 20 2005, 12:23 PM, said:

I interested to know why the other Ming emperors were good for nothing

I think Emperor Zhengde set a really bad example for later descendant. I am quite surprise that his father and him are totally two different person. Hongzhi was considered as one of the Ming great Emperor while Zhengde was the worst Emperor.

[Type98G]

jiangji, on Dec 20 2005, 05:46 PM, said:

I think Emperor Zhengde set a really bad example for later descendant. I am quite surprise that his father and him are totally two different person. Hongzhi was considered as one of the Ming great Emperor while Zhengde was the worst Emperor.

I tend to think that the burcratic system that the first Ming emperor came up with is flaw from the start. That why there is so many good for nothing Ming emperors.

This post has been edited by Type98G: 20 December 2005 - 07:50 PM

[jiangji]

Type98G, on Dec 21 2005, 12:50 AM, said:

I tend to think that the burcratic system that the first Ming emperor came up with is flaw from the start. That why there is so many good for nothing Ming emperors.

Do you mean the prime minister posts eliminated by Hong Wu? I don't think this is a main cause since it was being replace by another new posts called Imperial secretariat which grow quite powerful after Hong Wu died.

[jiangji]

Type98G, on Dec 20 2005, 12:23 PM, said:

I interested to know why the other Ming emperors were good for nothing

According to Ming Shih, only five Ming Emperors considered as good and capable. They are Hong Wu, Yongle, Hongxi, Xuande and Hong Zhi. However, Hong Wu and Yongle are the only outstanding Ming Emperors and the rest was either on average or below that. Unlike other Ming Emperor, Hong Wu and Yongle raised in a very different environments. Hong Wu was a peasant live in a very difficult environments and he had to work hard to achieve something. Other Ming Emperors was raised in luxury and doesn't need to worry about anything which lead them to uninterested in state affairs and have less connection with the people.

The other Ming Emperors are actually man of talent and with high quality. For example, Jiajing Emperor was man of talent and manage to keep the eunuchs in check ensuring they never receives any real power. However, jiajing became to obssess with taoist which lead to the real power fall under his trusted Grand secretary. Jiajing later found out that his trusted Grand secretary was abusing his power and corrupted. He later dismissess the grand secretary and regret in his deathbed.

This post has been edited by jiangji: 08 January 2006 - 05:03 PM

[Shadowfax]

Emperor Hongzhi was one of a kind in Ming dyansty because he was very devoted to Confucianism. He had scholar-officials regularly come to discuss classics literature with him and to analyze going-on problems in relation to what happedn in the past. He reduced the power of the eunuches. The Neo-Confucianists were very happy with him. They praised him and said he was the model emperor and gave him the title Xiaozong "the Filial" for the Confucian quality of "filial piety". The emperor teamed up with his officials in governing, which is a very rare practice in Ming dynasty.

Although Hongzhi tried to tighten up his administration, he was soft and thus usually didn't strongly enforce his reforms. In addition, he spoiled his empress, who increased palace luxury and spending and often asked favors for her own siblings. Nevertheless, the scholar-officials thought highly of him after his death and said in the Ming History that: "The Ming held the realm through out a succession of sixteen rulers. Other than Emperor Taizu and Chengzu, those worthy of commendation are only Renzong, Xuanzong, Xiaozong, and no others... Xiaozong (Hongzhi) was alone in having the ability to maintain his governing in humility and modesty, to be diligent in governing and to have deep concern for the people, ever vigilant to uphold the Great Way of guarding the realm's riches and not abusing his powers, maintaining the purity and uprightness of his court, and assuring that the people would enjoy abundance."

unfortunately later his descendants messed it up again even for all his hard work.

This post has been edited by Shadowfax: 08 January 2006 - 10:21 PM

[wlee15]

Shadowfax, on Jan 8 2006, 08:20 PM, said:

unfortunately later his descendants messed it up again even for all his hard work.

Actually Hongzhi's line died with his son the Zhengde Emperor.

[jiangji]

Shadowfax, on Jan 9 2006, 03:20 AM, said:

unfortunately later his descendants messed it up again even for all his hard work.

I think Hong Zhi once says that his son is too obsess with pleasure. I wonder why he did not teach Zheng de probably.

[Shadowfax]

Quote

Actually Hongzhi's line died with his son the Zhengde Emperor.

ah, I didnt read the family tree carefully. Indeed the next next emperor (Jiajing) was not of his line.

[khwarazm]

Hongzhi emperor was actually only half Han. His mother was from Guizhou or the south and probably Yao or Miao.

[poirot]

jiangji, on Jan 8 2006, 04:58 PM, said:

According to Ming Shih, only five Ming Emperors considered as good and capable. They are Hong Wu, Yongle, Hongxi, Xuande and Hong Zhi. However, Hong Wu and Yongle are the only outstanding Ming Emperors and the rest was either on average or below that. Unlike other Ming Emperor, Hong Wu and Yongle raised in a very different environments. Hong Wu was a peasant live in a very difficult environments and he had to work hard to achieve something. Other Ming Emperors was raised in luxury and doesn't need to worry about anything which lead them to uninterested in state affairs and have less connection with the people.

The other Ming Emperors are actually man of talent and with high quality. For example, Jiajing Emperor was man of talent and manage to keep the eunuchs in check ensuring they never receives any real power. However, jiajing became to obssess with taoist which lead to the real power fall under his trusted Grand secretary. Jiajing later found out that his trusted Grand secretary was abusing his power and corrupted. He later dismissess the grand secretary and regret in his deathbed.

Hongzhi grew up in a difficult environment. If I remember, he lived in constant threat of being discovered and killed by his father's favorite concubine, who was 17 years older than his father. Hongzhi's mother was a servant/concubine collected as a war trophy from a rebellion in the Southwest (I think she was the daughter of a tribal chief). One day the emperor took fancy of the tribal chief's daughter and she bore him a son. The son was hidden away secretly to escape presecution by the emperor's favorite and therefore Hongzhi did not enjoy luxuries handed naturally to a prince. During his hard childhood, Hongzhi observed the corruption of court enunchs and decided to curb their power once he ascended the throne.