15 replies to this topic

[Nguyen-Trong Cam]

The term Luo 骆 appeared during Han, but when did the term Luo Yue 骆越 appear?
And though customarily it is thought to be the ancestors of the Vietnamese, Jeffrey Barlow, using Chinese sources, think the Zhuang has the Luo Yue, in addition to the Xi Ou 西瓯, as their progenitor.

[Yun]

In the Houhan Shu 《后汉书》, written in the 5th century (Age of Fragmentation), there is the following passage: 建武十一年，将兵至中卢，屯骆越。 (in the 11th year of Jianwu [i.e. 35 AD], he (Zang Gong) marched his army to Zhonglu and encamped at Luoyue." Zhonglu was a county in Nan prefecture 南郡, along the Yangzi River in Hubei (near the Three Gorges). It is possible that there were Luo Yue people living there, hence the name; otherwise it could be a coincidence.

[nguoiVietchanhtong]

It's no coincidence. By the oral tradition, it was where the Luo Yue resided the most.

[Nguyen-Trong Cam]

Yun, on Jan 5 2006, 01:37 AM, said:

In the Houhan Shu 《后汉书》, written in the 5th century (Age of Fragmentation), there is the following passage: 建武十一年，将兵至中卢，屯骆越。 (in the 11th year of Jianwu [i.e. 35 AD], he (Zang Gong) marched his army to Zhonglu and encamped at Luoyue." Zhonglu was a county in Nan prefecture 南郡, along the Yangzi River in Hubei (near the Three Gorges). It is possible that there were Luo Yue people living there, hence the name; otherwise it could be a coincidence.

I heard the MinYue were also called Luo, with the radical insect. Could that be the reason?

[qrasy]

Nguyen-Trong Cam, on Jan 6 2006, 01:09 AM, said:

I heard the MinYue were also called Luo, with the radical insect. Could that be the reason?

Should not be. The Luo I can find with insect radical is 螺 and 蠃 (both are not the fourth tone, and did not have a -k). 螺 is conch, 蠃 is the solitary wasp.

Min itself (閩) is already with insect radical.

[TrueViet]

Yun, on Jan 5 2006, 06:37 AM, said:

In the Houhan Shu 《后汉书》, written in the 5th century (Age of Fragmentation), there is the following passage: 建武十一年，将兵至中卢，屯骆越。 (in the 11th year of Jianwu [i.e. 35 AD], he (Zang Gong) marched his army to Zhonglu and encamped at Luoyue." Zhonglu was a county in Nan prefecture 南郡, along the Yangzi River in Hubei (near the Three Gorges). It is possible that there were Luo Yue people living there, hence the name; otherwise it could be a coincidence.

There are some possibilities:
1- There can be more than one LuoYue, and each LuoYue was distinct from others.
2- The LuoYue in this time was not the LuoYue in other times. It is simply the same wording.
3- One of the LuoYues was ancient local Vietnamese, while other LuoYues was local Chinese.
4- The same LuoYue was roaming around China over time. It ultimately became ancient Vietnamese.
5- The local people in north Vietnam then are now minorities groups in Vietnam. They were not LuoYue then.
6- Any combinations of above possibilities.
Depending one's desire or belief, a person can pick any of the above.

Please, add in any possibilities any of you can think of?

[thankstoall]

Nguyen-Trong Cam, on Jan 5 2006, 11:09 AM, said:

I heard the MinYue were also called Luo, with the radical insect. Could that be the reason?

Min Yue 閩 bears the insect radical. I guess you mean what Lou in this map http://map.huhai.net/18-19.jpg in Qin dynasty. There were two Lou Yue groups, 1 in Northern Vietnam today and another group in eastern Kwangtung (Guangdong). Two Lou characters have the same writing, they are neither this 螺 conch nor this 蠃 solitary wasp.

-Min Yue was the final Yue country that lost independence to Han, even later than Northern Vietnam. In the fragmentation period, the Min Yue state came up again, then destroyed by another state called Southern Tang. 　

-If you want to know the Yue, you have better to collect the Yue sections in these books 漢書-Hán thư、 後漢書 - hậu hán thư、史記-sử ký、越絶書-Việt tuyệt thư. All are available online in both full and simple Chinese scripts. (No dau het thong tin hoac bop meo thong tin chu khong cho minh biet su that, tot nhat tu minh tim quach cho xong anh Ca?m a)

Regards,

TTA

Edited by thankstoall, 06 January 2006 - 10:40 AM.

[Nguyen-Trong Cam]

thankstoall, on Jan 6 2006, 07:25 AM, said:

Min Yue 閩 bears the insect radical. I guess you mean what Lou in this map http://map.huhai.net/18-19.jpg in Qin dynasty. There were two Lou Yue groups, 1 in Northern Vietnam today and another group in eastern Kwangtung (Guangdong). Two Lou characters have the same writing, they are neither this 螺 conch nor this 蠃 solitary wasp.

-Min Yue was the final Yue country that lost independence to Han, even later than Northern Vietnam. In the fragmentation period, the Min Yue state came up again, then destroyed by another state called Southern Tang. 　

-If you want to know the Yue, you have better to collect the Yue sections in these books 漢書-Hán thư、 後漢書 - hậu hán thư、史記-sử ký、越絶書-Việt tuyệt thư. All are available online in both full and simple Chinese scripts. (No dau het thong tin hoac bop meo thong tin chu khong cho minh biet su that, tot nhat tu minh tim quach cho xong anh Ca?m a)

Regards,

TTA

Unfortunately I do not know Chinese (kind of old to start learning it).
But I read in Nguo^`n Go^'c Ma~ Lai cu?a Da^n To^.c Vie^.t Nam by Bi`nh Nguye^n Lo^.c that there are 3 Luo characters for peoples.
1. Luo with the insect (Tra~i or Tri~) root to indicate the Shandong people, the MinYue people, and the Luo Yue people.
2. Luo with the white horse having a black mane radical (Ma~) to indicate the Cantonese.
3. Luo with the black horse having a white mane radical (Chuy) to indicate people in Gansu or Qinghai.
The Vietnamese were given all 3 characters, but the Vietnamese themselves used only the 1st one. The fact that all 3 characters were used for peoples in Vietnam was probably due to the fact that Vietnam has Kadai speaking people (2nd Luo) and Tibetan-Burmese speaking people (3rd Luo).

[naruwan]

this is from 山海經 which is written at least as late as early western Han.

海內南經
Southern Geography on this side of the Pacific Ocean

海內東南陬以西者１。
Starting from the South East to the West on this side of the Pacific Ocean.

Quote

１　郭璞云：「從南頭起之也。」珂案：郭注「從南頭起之也」應作「從東南頭起之也」。此經方位與海外南經所記方位恰相反。

甌居海中１。閩在海中２，其西北有山。一曰閩中山在海中３。
Ou is at south eastern corner on this side of the ocean. Min is at the south eastern corner on this side of the ocean. There are mountains to its northwest. Another says the mountains in MinZhong county is in the ocean.

Quote

１　郭璞云：「今臨海永寧縣，即東甌，在岐海中也；音嘔。」王念孫云：「御覽州郡十七（卷一七一）引居作在。」楊慎云：「郭注岐海，海之岐流也，猶云稗海。」郝懿行云：「周書王會篇云：『歐人蟬蛇。』孔晁注云：『東越歐人也。』又云：『且甌文蜃。』注云：『且甌在越。』伊尹四方令云：『正東越漚，正南甌鄧。』疑甌與漚、歐並古字通也。」珂案：甌即東甌，即今浙江省舊溫州府地。又有西甌，即今廣西壯族自治區貴縣地。

1 Gou: YungNing county on the coast to day is Dong Ou (eastern Ou), it's at the ChiHai... Hao: In ZhouShu, chapter Wanghue says "People of Ou are worships snake". Kong: Dong Yue (East Yue) are of Ou... Ou are at Yue. YiYin of 4 directions: Direct east is Yue Ou, Direct South is Ou Deng. 甌,漚,歐 are preabably the same word in Ancient times. Ke: Ou is Dong Ou, today's ZheJiang Provence, old Wen state capital. There are also Xi Ou (Western Ou), they are today's Zhuang autonomous area in GuangXi Gui county.

２　郭璞云：「閩越即西甌，今建安郡是也，亦在岐海中；音旻。」吳任臣云：「郭璞以建安為西甌，非是。寰宇記：鬱林廢黨州經善勞縣乃古西甌居，非閩也。」郝懿行云：「建安郡故秦閩中郡，見晉書地理志。漢書惠帝紀：『二年，立閩越君搖為東海王。』顏師古注云：『即今泉州是其地。』」珂案：此泉州即今福建省福州。

2 Gou: MinYue is XiOu (Western Ou) .... Hao: JianAn county is MinZhong county in Qin era. See Geography in Jin Shu. Also, HanShu also mentioned the 2nd year of Emperor Hui, they granted, Yao, the king of MinYue the title of King of Eatern Sea. Yan: JianAn, MinZhong is today's QuanZhou. Ke: Quan Zhou is today's FuZhou in FuJian provence.

３　吳任臣云：「何喬遠閩書曰：『按謂之海中者，今閩中地有穿井闢地，多得螺蚌殼、敗槎，知洪荒之世，其山盡在海中，後人乃先後填築之也。』」

Nguyen-Trong Cam, on Jan 6 2006, 01:23 PM, said:

Unfortunately I do not know Chinese (kind of old to start learning it).
But I read in Nguo^`n Go^'c Ma~ Lai cu?a Da^n To^.c Vie^.t Nam by Bi`nh Nguye^n Lo^.c that there are 3 Luo characters for peoples.
1. Luo with the insect (Tra~i or Tri~) root to indicate the Shandong people, the MinYue people, and the Luo Yue people.
2. Luo with the white horse having a black mane radical (Ma~) to indicate the Cantonese.
3. Luo with the black horse having a white mane radical (Chuy) to indicate people in Gansu or Qinghai.
The Vietnamese were given all 3 characters, but the Vietnamese themselves used only the 1st one. The fact that all 3 characters were used for peoples in Vietnam was probably due to the fact that Vietnam has Kadai speaking people (2nd Luo) and Tibetan-Burmese speaking people (3rd Luo).

駱 <-- this is what you are talking about. I am assuming to the second and third character.

This is what I gather, 越 Yue, 駱 Lou, 甌 Ou, 漚 Ou , 歐 Ou perhaps even 粵 are all traslation from how the people call themselves at different eras.

Regarding your insect radical...

i can't seen to figure out which one either.

I have written this for the Taiwanese Language thread to explain the origin of the term Holo.
http://www.chinahist...opic=2119&st=15


There are actually many "translation" to Kanji for this word.

Most of the Holo users believes that these translates to 河洛 "HeLuo". The basis of the language is from those languages used by the people of Han and Tang dynasty that escaping to Fujian area.

The grammar of Holo language is less Altaic and more Han. The most distinctive being the description of the noun is behind the noun. For example, what Mandarin would call "母豬" female pig for example, will be "豬母" pig female in Holo. This is very typical of Han language until the Nomad invasions. As more adapted words are introduced to the Holo language, new words often adapt the new grammar.

Other etheic groups has given the Holo other Kanjis, such as :
福佬
鶴老

This is especially true of the Hakka people. Because they considered their ancestor also from 河洛. There are even people that says it's 貉駱, however not only does this term not exist, it doesn't even sound right.

The biggest critisism for 河洛, even 福佬 to be the Kanji for Holo is that these Kanji aren't pronounced that way in Holo language. But it's not that the sound is different, it's that the tone is different. However Holo language has a characteristics that is tone change. For example, the tone for 火 "Huei" in 火, 火車 and 火車頭 are all different. So I suspect the criticism doesn't hold.

In any case, other studies have poitned to a new direction for origin of the Holo name.

甌駱

《史記》〈南越傳〉：「越桂林監居翁諭甌駱屬漢...」的這段記載，「甌」似乎在廣西桂林，人稱西甌。此外《資治通鑑》胡三省注引宋白曰：「貴州故西甌駱越之地，秦雖立桂林郡，仍有甌駱之名」。

This points to the Ou-Luo people in GuanXi.

《史記》〈東越傳〉：「孝惠三年...乃立搖為東海王，都東甌，世俗稱為東甌王。」這個東甌在浙江南部溫州（永嘉）一帶。所以後來這裡有河稱為甌江，甚至延伸到閩北都還有甌寧（建甌）縣。這是百越中的東越地；東甌就是東越。

This points Ouluo people to be part of Viet (Yue) people and puts them in northern Fujian.

《史記》〈趙世家〉：「夫剪髮文身，錯臂左衽，甌越之民也」。《索隱》：「劉氏云：今珠崖、儋耳謂之甌人，是有甌越」。所以甌越可能是在海南島。

This points Ou-Luo people in the Hai-Nan island.

《史記》〈南越尉佗傳〉：「佗因此以兵威邊，財物賂遺閩粵、西甌駱...」。《索隱》云：「後南越王尉佗攻破安陽王，令二使典主交阯九真二郡，尋此駱，即甌駱也。」如果這種說法屬實，那麼甌駱人的分佈可以南達越南北部。

This points Ou-Luo people in northern Vietnam.

I have always suspected that the following words are related:
越、粵、甌

They might be pointed all to the same group of people.

This might be probable. But this doesn't mean the Holo language is the language of the Yue people, because it's a Han language.

What might have happened is by the end of Tang dynasty when the Hakka people fled south, the Holo people were already in the flatlands of Fujian. The Hakka people might have called them by that name eventhough they were not the 甌駱 people. This is to belittle the Holo by saying they are not Han.

But that is only a theory. Also, the 甌駱 only fits the HokLo pronouncation in the Hakka language. So, who know?

I am sorry about not translating all the Chinese quotes from Shiji.

But as early as ShiJi, The Ou or Lou people are mentioned widely.

[TrueViet]

Nguyen-Trong Cam, on Jan 6 2006, 06:23 PM, said:

1. Luo with the insect (Tra~i) root to indicate the Shandong people,
the MinYue people, and the Luo Yue people.
2. Luo with the white horse having a black mane radical (Ma~) to indicate the Cantonese.
3. Luo with the black horse having a white mane radical (Chuy) to indicate people in Gansu or Qinghai.

They are:
1- 貉
2- 駱
3- 雒
They are called by the Vietnamese, which is different from Chinese speaking.

[naruwan]

TrueViet, on Jan 6 2006, 07:27 PM, said:

They are:
1- 貉
2- 駱
3- 雒
They are called by the Vietnamese, which is different from Chinese speaking.

Unfortunately, none had insect radical.

One has a cat radical, one has a horse radical and the last had a bird radical.

I think it is all just a translation of how people in that area originally call themselves.

Much like 匈奴 is only a translation of how the Huns call themselves.

Edited by naruwan, 07 January 2006 - 02:11 AM.

[TrueViet]

naruwan, on Jan 7 2006, 04:09 AM, said:

I think it is all just a translation of how people in that area originally call themselves.

The Vietnamese translation rather than the Chinese version.
You may notice that LuoYue sounds as MoYue (貉), MaYue, HeYue or HaoYue in Chinese instead.

[qrasy]

Nguyen-Trong Cam, on Jan 7 2006, 05:23 AM, said:

Unfortunately I do not know Chinese (kind of old to start learning it).
But I read in Nguo^`n Go^'c Ma~ Lai cu?a Da^n To^.c Vie^.t Nam by Bi`nh Nguye^n Lo^.c that there are 3 Luo characters for peoples.
1. Luo with the insect (Tra~i or Tri~) root to indicate the Shandong people, the MinYue people, and the Luo Yue people.
2. Luo with the white horse having a black mane radical (Ma~) to indicate the Cantonese.
3. Luo with the black horse having a white mane radical (Chuy) to indicate people in Gansu or Qinghai.
The Vietnamese were given all 3 characters, but the Vietnamese themselves used only the 1st one. The fact that all 3 characters were used for peoples in Vietnam was probably due to the fact that Vietnam has Kadai speaking people (2nd Luo) and Tibetan-Burmese speaking people (3rd Luo).

TrueViet, on Jan 7 2006, 11:27 AM, said:

They are:
1- 貉
2- 駱
3- 雒
They are called by the Vietnamese, which is different from Chinese speaking.

1. 豸: a legendary beast
2. The radical is "Horse" (馬). The meaning is right (white horse with black mane).
3. The radical is "Bird"(隹). The meaning is right (black horse with white mane) but quite weird (contradicts the radical). 雒 was also a name of river, now written as 洛, and the name LuoYang is related to it.

TrueViet, on Jan 7 2006, 03:40 PM, said:

The Vietnamese translation rather than the Chinese version.
You may notice that LuoYue sounds as MoYue (貉), MaYue, HeYue or HaoYue in Chinese instead.

Actually I also found the readings of Hạc and Mạch, apart from Lạc, in an online Han-Viet dictionary. I find it weird to classify people of Gansu-Qinghai to be Yue since the direction is opposite.

[TrueViet]

qrasy, on Jan 7 2006, 08:49 AM, said:

3. The radical is "Bird"(隹). The meaning is right (black horse with white mane) but quite weird (contradicts the radical). 雒 was also a name of river, now written as 洛, and the name LuoYang is related to it.

I've heard the legend of the archer HouYi with the Luo Maid, too, but I cannot recall the story.
Some people like the BaiYueism, but I do not buy it anyway.

[nguoiVietchanhtong]

If you don't like it, that's ok. There are many factors that you could dislike BaiYue.