[General_Zhaoyun]

The time frame happens to be during Warring States Period, and if Alexander the Great attacked from the west into China, the first state to encounter would probably be Qin, the most war-like and powerful military state at that time...

If Alexander the Great invaded China , what would happen? Could he have conquered China?

[ih8eurocentrix]

if alexenders cavalry has been destroyed the slow compact phalanx would be easy prey for crossbows and horse archer,so if qin can take out alexenders cavalry Qin will win for sure

[General_Zhaoyun]

For detail military information about Qin army during warring states period, please refer to

http://www.chinahist...p?showtopic=135

[General_Zhaoyun]

Maps of Warring States period..


Warring states Period (Early period)


Warring states Period (Later period)

[Kenneth]

His army was not willing to follow him on further conquests beyond the edge of the known world...so I doubt he would be able to project his power so far.
But assuming he didnt die in mysterious circumstances and had an chance to consolidate (as he was a good adminstrator too) and marched eastward.
If he was to appear on Qins flanks while the struggle for China was stil raging he would be a major annoyance to Qin. Their position on the fringes of the central plains states is said to be one of their advantages...a secure territory from which to attack the other Warrign States.
Alexander could never conquer China once united as the numbers of battles to be fought and size of Chinese armies would be immense. WIthout the collapse of Qin authority he could not, i.e timed during the revolts/uprising again Qin.
Timing would be everything so since ALexander predates Qins victory he could be viewed as another factor, or a Warrign State lord in himself. Even if he pulled off success against Qin he would still encounter many other states on a war footing with strong desires for survival.
At best he would either tilt the balance of the Warring States powers against Qin (as it would be a perfect time for Chu to launch a full assault from the other side) and perhaps influence a different state emerging victorious.
Perhaps other smaller states might even seek to contact Alexander and offer him supply in return for a war of proxy against the feared Qin. SO many temporary alliances and changes of fortune occured during the Warrign States this could be a great chance for revenge if these foreign tribe of Macedonians and allies could be lured into serving another states purpose with a sutiable reward.
The political and strategic shift of balances of power is more intersting than the obligatory 'who had the better weapons' argument that wil follow.
Alexander might need to be seen beyond the purely military (as he was a capable and threatening force) and perhaps as a Warlord and political force also.

[Zuo Zongtang]

I did this thread in another forum before...

[Sephodwyrm]

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If he was to appear on Qins flanks while the struggle for China was stil raging he would be a major annoyance to Qin. Their position on the fringes of the central plains states is said to be one of their advantages...a secure territory from which to attack the other Warrign States.

Odd. The state of the Qin is the youngest amongst all, and they occupied their land through bloody conquests. The position of the Macedonians will be in the northwestern wastelands. Great place to get killed by the Xiongnu, who are growing into a competent power.

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Alexander could never conquer China once united as the numbers of battles to be fought and size of Chinese armies would be immense. WIthout the collapse of Qin authority he could not, i.e timed during the revolts/uprising again Qin.

Alexander could never conquer China even before it was united. The Qin authority is no danger of collapse in the 360-328 BC. The reformation of Gongsun Yang has given Qin a new government system way beyond any of those in the Central Plains. The army of the Qin is second to none. And plus, the 6 states are not all viewing Qin as a threat.

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Timing would be everything so since ALexander predates Qins victory he could be viewed as another factor, or a Warrign State lord in himself. Even if he pulled off success against Qin he would still encounter many other states on a war footing with strong desires for survival.

I would like to ask you what you meant by predating Qin victory since the post-reformation Qin has being winning victories and carrying out adroit diplomatic manoeuvers to seize the best result for themselves (pro-active diplomacy). There is little chance thhe could pull off any success against the Qin especially when the Qin army will most certainly adopt the strategem of Yi Yi Dai Lao (allowing Alex to tire out himself).

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At best he would either tilt the balance of the Warring States powers against Qin (as it would be a perfect time for Chu to launch a full assault from the other side) and perhaps influence a different state emerging victorious.

Nope. The balance of power is still strongly vested in the hands of Qi and not the Qin yet. Qin supremacy will come latter after Zhang Yi's tenure as premier of Qin. The state of Qi, way east at Shandong, is the biggest power in China at this time.

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Perhaps other smaller states might even seek to contact Alexander and offer him supply in return for a war of proxy against the feared Qin. SO many temporary alliances and changes of fortune occured during the Warrign States this could be a great chance for revenge if these foreign tribe of Macedonians and allies could be lured into serving another states purpose with a sutiable reward. 

The state most likely to contact Alexander will be Qin itself, and both are highly likely to pursue aggression against each other. The many temporary alliances etc are post Shang Yang era, and Alexander is coming in the era of Shang Yang (360-328 BC). And you have said it yourself. The foreign tribe of Macedonians. No Chinese state will ever want to be allied with a foreign tribe. Those that did are viewed as traitor states and the rest will be allied against it. The states of Jin and Qi did not carry out huge campaigns against the northern nomads for fun. They did it to protect the central plains in the motto of Zun Wang Nang Yi (respecting the Son of Heaven and sweeping away the barbarians).

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The political and strategic shift of balances of power is more intersting than the obligatory 'who had the better weapons' argument that wil follow.
Alexander might need to be seen beyond the purely military (as he was a capable and threatening force) and perhaps as a Warlord and political force also.

Not interesting when you have dealt with these type of topics once in a while, and me knowing that you probably just don't like my answers. Alexander will never be accepted Warlord or political force in China of the Warring States era when a non-Chinese state of Zhongshan, powerful in military, with elite soldiers clad in iron scale and scoring countless victories against Zhao and Wei, succumbed at last to the combined arms of the Central Plains. Zhongshan is a most excellent analogy of the Macedonians. And plus, they're even more alien to the Chinese at that time. The appearance of the Macedonians might unite China sooner than expected and possibly invoke a western march by the newly emerged Chinese empire.

[Sephodwyrm]

Before it all goes down to convoluted discussion again, the moderator proposes that the proponent of the argument state:

1. Their stand
2. 3 reasons why their side will have the upper hand
3. And 2 reasons why the advantage or reasons offered by the other side is uncertain and void.

[Kenneth]

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....me knowing that you probably just don't like my answers.

I don't know why you 'know' that. This forum is about discussing history...so thanks for your points.
I concede you are probably right about the power of states at the time...but the argumnet seemed to be one based on Qin as the opponent, and didnt specify his route which will still be from the West...and this dates to before final Qin victory.
Your point on the presence of Macedonians advancing might even cause some Chinese states to band together long enough to evict them is a valid one. It may well work out he is a common enemy.

As for the confusion about .

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I would like to ask you what you meant by predating Qin victory

I mean Alexander wasn't around to see China after Qin final victory..... he lived at an earlier time. I dont mean that QIn never had any earlier victory or defeats, or didnt persue diplomacy and manipulation either. It was the nature of the times. Qin victory equals defeating all the Warrign States.
&

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Alexander could never conquer China even before it was united. The Qin authority is no danger of collapse in the 360-328 BC.

Exactly. Maybe my paragraph jumped from period to period but I said he could never conquer unified China, nor could he face all the Warring States even if succesful against Qin...I also never said that the revolts against Qin are during the Warring States as I am quite aware that they bought down the young dynasty. My comment about 'timing' is that success might be influenced precisely by when he faced Qin...on the rise or on the collapse......but that he wasn't around at the time of unification anyway so I moved onto discussing the possible Warring States attitutude to his entry.

All only my opinion though...and you are entitled to yours. I am envisaging any way that he could be a feature at the time in opposition against Qin so only provided speculatives. Yours provide new considerations for me.
I do not rate his chances against China as a whole at any time...but the idea Qin would just adopt this or that tactic and be assured of 'ALex's' defeat assumes the other person is a puppet who won't pre-empt or counter any strategy bought against him.
Qin was hardly invulnerable to defeats over its long history.
Consider this a devils advocate again, as I don;t care to champion Alexander but just the 'do this and he will fail' summary assumes the other General plays the game by rules you offer him.

[Sephodwyrm]

Anyway, I strongly advocate the following of the instructions stated on post 8 for future discussions. I'll be playing moderator of the debate for this thread. I'll be watching it closely.

[kongming]

Hi Everyone,
I'm a greenhorn in history, so I'm not as knowledgeable as everyone here but I do have some opinion. I personally feel that Alexander could not have conquer China. Why?
Because

1)The warring states are no weakling.
The people there are no weakling. They work very hard like doing agriculture work and hunting. This make them strong unlike during the opium war where the people are weak. So they are strong physically. They have people of strong intellect. These people are strategist. So this make things more difficult.


2)Distance between China and Alexander and size
Suppose if Alexander arrive in China and he fought one of the power in China, he would face military resources shortages. If his army suffer losses, how is he going to replenish them. His power is in the west(faraway). A huge army require lots of supply. His opponent would be able to replenish faster as the war take place in their territory. At that time, I'm sure that China also have a huge population. During the war between China and United States over Korea, the United States have strong weapon but there were times when they were defeated. The reason is because China have a huge population. For every 10 chinese people die, 1 American die. The Chinese can afford it.



3)Geographical Problem(China is big)
Since he just arrive and China is so big, he would not be able to understand the terrains or places, languages. By the time he try to understand, he would have been wipe out. One of the reason why Napoelon Bonaparte lose was because he did not have a comprehensive map on Russia. He thought that he could reach Moscow but didn't. He did not even understand the climate. If Alexander attack, he would face the same problem.


4) A good target
While it is possible that an alliance could be forge between Alexander and one of the power. Suppose if your are in a life and death situation, in order to survive, you need to cooperate with another party eventhough you don't like it.
There could be another possibility, the cooperation between the powers to drive out Alexander since he is not a Chinese. The foreigners are good target because of the colour of their skin. If you are on the run, you won't be able to mix into the civilians because of skin colour and language.




5) Transportation
To reach China, it would take a long time unles you have vehicles like cars. If there are cars, it might be possible but still difficult. With the technology that they have, it's very difficult. Reaching it need lots of time and we haven't counted time needed for exploration and conquering.

6)Immortaliy
Humans are not immortal, so it is not possible to have that much of time.


Finally I would like to apologise for my ignorances. I'm just giving my opinion. I know many of you here are expert.

[MING-LOYALIST]

All seven states were heavily armed and had huge standing armies.
The problem with Alexander would be that he would be seen as an alien.
The warring states era was still part of the Zhou dynasty and had obligations to protect the Zhou throne and prevent none central plain states invading the Central plains.
There are just too many examples of warring states putting away thier differences and ally together to defeat an alien threat.

Alexander's army was smaller then any one of the states armies and
Alexander would had to face armies of ALL seven kingdoms combined.

[Norseman]

kongming, on Feb 17 2005, 11:09 AM, said:

1)The warring states are no weakling.
The people there are no  weakling. They work very hard like doing agriculture work and hunting. This make them strong unlike during the opium war where  the people are weak. So they are strong physically. They have people of strong intellect. These people are strategist. So this make things more difficult.

The Greek people are strong physically to.And of course Alexander knew strategy too.

[HaSY]

what good miltary strategists and generals did the 7 kingdoms have at that time?

[kongming]

Norseman, on Feb 17 2005, 08:32 PM, said:

The Greek people are strong physically to.And of course Alexander knew strategy too.

Yes, the greek people are strong but so are the chinese. This means that if we compare one to one, there would not be much of a difference but the other factors would have ensured the greek defeat. The distance and numbers. If we calculate the advantages and disadvantages of both the greek and chinese generally in term of the factors which I have said, the chinese would have a more advantage position. If the greek don't attack, they won't face this kind of situation but if they attack, they would be defeated for sure. If the chinese attack the west, they would also face such a kind of predicament but the differences could be the population factor. If a country goes on a conquering spree, he would need more people to guard and administer these places. If not enough people are put on a conquered place, they could very well be revolt from the locals. If this happen, the main forces supply route could be cut off and it would not be easy to retreat back to the west. It's the same with the west and east situation. The area is too wide. By the time a place is conquered, the previous conquered places would face revolt because not enough people could be use to supress the rebellion. The only way to ensure a safe passage is to move the civillians( make them into a majority race) to a conquered place and then after a very long time(grow), the territory would be permanently belonging to the conquering force but of course to ensure a more permanent status, the locals would need to be drive out or killed. This need a very very long time to achieve.If you just conquered and put some military force there, the conquered territory would not be permanent. If Alexander stretch his military forces so wide, how much would he have left by the time he arrive in China. If he does not stretch his army, the conquered territories would not last long. In the end, lots of trouble would pop out. A long campaign against China would reduce resources and strength of the attacking forces. If at that time while he is so faraway from his country and he move large amount of military power out of his country, this means his country strength would be weaken and if this time another forces which is weaker than his forces attack his country, he would end up losing his own country and his empire would break up. By the time he arrive back to his country, everything would be over.

I do not know of people who are extremely strong during the warring states as I'm not an expert in the era of warring states. What I do know is more about the 3 kingdoms era. I know of some extremely strong people during that era. One of them was Guan Yu. He was very strong and of big build. His weapons is very very heavy. I heard it from my friend. Even I wondered how this man could carry such weapon and swing it. The only possibility is that he must be of very big size and strong. I also heard of something else. This man could knock down tree with one blow. If there was such people during 3 kingdom period, then the past could very well also have such kind of people. Nowadays, human's size are much smaller compare to a thousand years ago. It is like we are shrinking.