[General_Zhaoyun]

Emperor Tang Taizong killed his brothers during the palace coup of Xuanwu. Was it necessary for him to do so in order to gain power? His brothers had plotted to kill him though..

Some historians argue that if Taizong had not done so, he would not have become an emperor and Tang dynasty would not be so great..do you think this is true?

[Shadowfax]

I think his killing of his brothers was necessary in order to gain the throne. Even though it was a very bad thing to do, it would be somewhat impossible for him to become an emperor because the Chinese at that time still think only the oldest son should succeed to the father's inheritance. :( So there would be a small chance for him to win over his older brother in inheriting the throne from his father.

[General_Zhaoyun]

I've been wondering if Emperor Taizong's achievement isn't really great in history, would the historian's critique of him be that great? I mean, most historians agreed that he was a great emperor, but supposed his achievements wasn't as great as it supposed to be, would historians use this 'plot of killing his brothers' to criticise him as a cruel scheming person?

[snowybeagle]

Personally, I think the rivalry between Li ShiMin and Li JianCheng left no room for anyone coming out second best. Each would constantly be a threat to each other.

[MING-LOYALIST]

Yes Li shi min was not the oldest of the three, therefore if he did not kill his brothers he might not have gotten the throne.

[Borjigin Ayurbarwada]

Jiang Chen did plot to poison li shi min, and that almost killed him. For that, I say Shi Min has no choice but to kill him, but the fact that he killed his whole family is a part of the Chinese custom to kill the kin of the fallen enemy so they would not be a threat. This isn't just Li Shi Min's doing, almost all good emperors would do the same. Its like a culture.
Shi Le of Zhao of the northern dynasties once discovered his son plotted against him, he ordered his whole kin killed, that included his grandson (which he actually liked). When that grandson was about to be executed, he saw Shi Le and dragged his cloth crying, Even the ruthless Shi Le was moved and ordered his grandson spared, but it was too late. This did some emotional damage to him later. As you can see its a chinese custom, not just what some bad emperors would do. In fact Li Shi Min was far better than Shi Le, consider he didn't kill his son when he plotted against him. In fact he even considered to spare general Hou Jun Ji's life who plotted with the prince!

[Sephodwyrm]

I think its a really bad culture. But maybe that's because in our psyche the smallest social structure is the family and not the individual...

[bhchao]

Tang Taizong's achievements may have been slightly exaggerated because he controlled the compilation of the materials used to edit his official records.

Would the court historians dare write anything that would damage his reputation?

Anyways I think killing his brothers at the palace gates was necessary because based on what I heard, Li Jiancheng and Li Yuanji were plotting against him and he had to take action as soon as possible to save his own neck. Besides that, Li Shimin also wanted power, and it is natural for human beings to want power, even today.

[stephyzzz]

hmm think ..
this is definitely needed..
coz his brother are aleady plotting against him..
he knew that his brother won't never let him out alive ..
even they managed to banish him to qin state..

Li Shi Min did the right choice, at least he managed to bring tang dynasty to the height that no emperor had even managed.

if killing some one of ur kin to save ur only ***
then u consider wrong
but to save the whole nation
i think this is a correct choice

[vp98]

There can be no other way. How often in history you can see or read that by giving your enemy a chance, you often end up destroying yourself. Think Xiang Yu and Liu Pang.

[Alexander39]

It is far more common than most think about that siblings kills one another off in dynastic wars, both in Asia and Europe, in fact the inheritance laws that were common in much of north western Europe that all sons should share equally, were a belatet attempt of to starve of intracine warfare among clans and families, something the tribe they belonged to, did not need since they were constantly surrounded by beligent tribes that would wiped them out (And did. Warfare among the Germannic tribes were endemic and for keeps IE the loser were removed from the history of the world.)
But as far as i know the Osmans were the only one to actually have instutionalized this concept that the oldest brother HAD to kill of his siblings when he took the throne, no buts or maybe's they were dead(Strangeld) when there were a new Sultan, the only ekseptions were when the ruling Sultan did not yet have any sons, in that case one or two at the most of his youngest brothers were keept alive until succesion were insure.

[thirdgumi]

- And no more than Earth has two suns, will Asia bear two kings. - Alexander
I loved this phrase when I watched the movie. Chinese counterpart would be 一国无二主，一山无二虎。
It was unfortunate that Li Shiming had to kill his own brother, obviouly in his point of view, it was necessary. We cannot judge him by our standards, after all they were not living in a democracy. BTW, during a lecture I had, a professor of ours put the possibility that the story of Li Shiming been poisoned was fake, it was written under the order of Li Shiming himself so to legitimate his actions, and we know that history books during Tang dynasty were heavly controled by the government. The lucky thing was that Li Shiming turned out to be a "not bad" emperor, otherwise, he would be know as one of the worst emperors in China and the first charge would be killing his own brothers.

[Moose]

Alexander39, on Sep 27 2005, 05:34 AM, said:

But as far as i know the Osmans were the only one to actually have instutionalized this concept that the oldest brother HAD to kill of his siblings when he took the throne, no buts or maybe's they were dead(Strangeld) when there were a new Sultan, the only ekseptions were when the ruling Sultan did not yet have any sons, in that case one or two at the most of his youngest brothers were keept alive until succesion were insure.

So basically if you are not the first son of the Sultan, you are pretty much heading towards a death sentence.

[Alexander39]

Presiesly. i dont think anybody can imagine what that did to the palace intriques in the harem, but paranoia was a survival trait not a sickness, and some of the women that this system forstert would give any ruler the shivers, there was absolutly nothing they would not do to keep their own sons alive, incl killing of any threats (IE other sons and their mothers). On the other hand the ruling Sultan could ekspect a incredible vigiliant harem to serve him in political and underhanded intelliigence sence, since the longer he lived the greater the chances the any single son would have of surviving the death of his older siblings due to sickness and accidents (Both natural and otherwise).

[Rong Qin Wang]

Zunjing de China History Forum members,

It is dubious whether Tang Taizong had actually altered historical records or not, so I am just going to stick with the facts here.

It was absolutely necessary for him to kill his brothers since the intense rivalry would not allow anyone to prevail at second best. We cannot blame him for killing his brothers since they were the ones who made the first move. It was clear that they cannot live in harmony with Tang Taizong even when Li Jian Cheng was already made the crown prince. The reason for the dispute was because Crown Prince Li Jiang Cheng had always been frightened that his younger brother would be more in favor with their father, and replace him as the heir. Li Jian Cheng was trying to harm Tang Taizong in every way he can. In this case, Tang Taizong was really an innocent victim. So, Tang Taizong had no other choice, but to kill his brothers. Hence, it was not his fault at all.

If you are sad that Tang Taizong had to kill his brother, then try thinking of it this way. The Xuanwu gate incident was inevitable! So, would not you have rather the victor being Tang Taizong than Prince Li Jian Cheng?

Personally, I am really against the practice of killing the entire family. I can never think of any good reasons for doing so until Sephodwyrm reminded me that the smallest social structure is the family, and not the individual.

Xie Xie to Sephodwyrm!