[Tyler]

Do you think Liu Shan was worthy to rule the land of Shu, in the video games he is called Liu Chan. He made very bad desicions, and his love of wine and women made matters worse. I do not think he was worthy, I have always beleaved the blow to the head as a child messed him up :rolleyes: . When Zhou Yun brought Liu Shan back to his lords arms after the heroic rescue at Chang Ban Liu Bei threw him to the ground. But thats just my opinion what do you think of him?

[General_Zhaoyun]

Liu Shan was a crab ruler. In fact, it was because of Zhugeliang that he was able to live 'comfortably' for a number of years. He indulges himself with wines and women, never thought of 'restoring' the han dynasty as like his father Liu Bei. He was a man without any strategy or ambition..in short a lazy pig.. ;) :P

However, General Zhaoyun (hehee.. i.e. me :P ) did save him at Mt Chang Ban when he was a baby.

[Tyler]

And when he returned him to Liu Bei he threw the infant lord, his head hit the ground and begain crying (That is the souce of his problems, my opinion though). Liu Bei shouted at Zhou Yun saying he could not risk his life like that. Do you think Liu Bei was harsh on Zhou Yun for saving his son?

[Fushida]

Zhao Yun did what he was supposed to do. Liu Bei would have been worse off if Liu Shan was killed in Chang Ban, since morale would have dropped and relations between Zhao Yun and Liu Bei may have worsened.

Liu Shan on the other hand was a prime example of many of China's later emperors - corrupt, and careless. Rulers like him deserved to have their lands taken and empires overthrown.

[Yun]

The whole story about Liu Bei throwing his son on the ground and rebuking Zhao Yun for risking his life is fictional. It comes from the Ming dynasty novel, and is not mentioned in the Sanguo Zhi. Neither is the melodramatic story about Lady Gan throwing herself into a well so as not to burden Zhao Yun. The Sanguo Zhi simply states that Zhao Yun escorted both Lady Gan and the child to safety, and doesn't mention him having to fight off huge armies on the way.

[Tyler]

<_< aww it would have been cool if it was real <_<

[Yun]

Interesting... I always thought the name was pronounced "Chan" until you pointed out that it should be "Shan". Now I realise why - because the Chinese character 禅 is only pronounced as "Chan" when in reference to Zen Buddhism 禅宗, which did not even exist during Liu Shan's time!

[Tyler]

I always thought it was Liu Chan too thanks to dynasty warriors (video game). The video games on the three kingdoms era are always making mistakes they prenunce Cao Cao, cow cow > Liu Shan, Liu Chan > and probly others.

[deathdoom56]

Liu chan was a man that said without hesitation "ah its so nice here i dont miss shu at all" after surrendering to wei without any fight and spending time in his mansion.

Still he did what he needed to. he was an ignorant fool and didnt bother Zhuge liangs economical revolutions.

However he didnt send diang wei reenforcements when shu was attacked so maybe he wasnt so good

[Book of Faith]

Though Liu Shan was an idiot, I wouldn't say it was his fault the kingdom was overrun. Jiang Wei brought the kingdom to ruin with his Northern campaigns.

[deathdoom56]

Book of Faith, on Jun 7 2004, 02:12 PM, said:

Though Liu Shan was an idiot, I wouldn't say it was his fault the kingdom was overrun. Jiang Wei brought the kingdom to ruin with his Northern campaigns.

Yah but Jiang Wei was the only good general Shu had after the death of Zhuge Liang. Still his tactics were of instant envelopement, securment of chokepoints and concentration of forces so although he wasw good in Wei's army that encouraged mobility and concentration, he was worthless in Shu's army whose philosophy was of firepower to destroy the enemy's mobility

[Book of Faith]

deathdoom56, on Jun 8 2004, 10:56 AM, said:

Book of Faith, on Jun 7 2004, 02:12 PM, said:

Though Liu Shan was an idiot, I wouldn't say it was his fault the kingdom was overrun.  Jiang Wei brought the kingdom to ruin with his Northern campaigns.

Yah but Jiang Wei was the only good general Shu had after the death of Zhuge Liang. Still his tactics were of instant envelopement, securment of chokepoints and concentration of forces so although he wasw good in Wei's army that encouraged mobility and concentration, he was worthless in Shu's army whose philosophy was of firepower to destroy the enemy's mobility

Nevertheless, had Jiang Wei halted the Northern Campaigns, Shu surely would of lasted longer. If he was truly a good general, he would have adapted to this.

[General_Zhaoyun]

Wasn't Jiang Wei previously from Wei? But later he was recruited by Zhugeliang and succeeded Zhugeliang's art of war?

[Book of Faith]

General_Zhaoyun, on Jun 8 2004, 03:00 PM, said:

Wasn't Jiang Wei previously from Wei? But later he was recruited by Zhugeliang and succeeded Zhugeliang's art of war?

Something like that, yes.

[deathdoom56]

General_Zhaoyun, on Jun 8 2004, 03:00 PM, said:

Wasn't Jiang Wei previously from Wei? But later he was recruited by Zhugeliang and succeeded Zhugeliang's art of war?

Yah but he wasnt much of a strategist.