[Borjigin Ayurbarwada]

The invasion is little more than a threat, parts of Japan however seem to treat it quite seriously, and even sang poems of it.

[jiangji]

I don't think Yongle plan to invade Japan since the cost of the wars is going to be extremely high. Even Yongle did plan to invade, he does not have the capability to do so.

The financial situation at that time has actually turning worse. Money always has been a problem for Ming. Also, Large amount of money has been spent on Zheng He Voyages, Mongol expedition, rebuilding grand canal, improve great wall, horse trading and building forbiden palace. Imperial treasuries was pretty empty and not possible to support the Wars.

Even if Yongle conquer japan, his descendents will not be able to keep it for long. After Yongle died, the mongol defeat Ming army and Annam declare independence in 1427. So, I would says it only be a temporary glory or even can bring down the entire Ming dynasty.

This post has been edited by jiangji: 10 January 2006 - 11:40 PM

[Shadowfax]

As Jiangji said, Ming was doing quite some big projects (chasing Mongolians + Vietnamnese and also Zheng He went looking for giraffs) , so if Yongle actually attacked and couldn't conquere Japan in a short time he probably would lose the war. But perhaps he would end the conflicts with Mongolia and Vietname to fight this war if he really wanted to.

[Hoa Phau]

if the mings are attempting to invade japan. they might end up defeated, for japan have its samurais, its strong castles, strong european support like the portuguese and the dutch, and arquebus ready to fire against the advancing infantry.

[caocao74]

Conan the destroyer, on Jan 11 2006, 03:00 AM, said:

3. If Yongle succeeded in conquering Japan, how would it have effected the world?

Perhaps (had Japan been brought-to-boot) Japan would just have served as another island serving as a temporary home for the Ming once the Manchu/Qing took over in the 17th Century. The Ming on Japan may have survived (1-200 years of integration having taken place) but unlikely that the local clans would have just let an opportunity slip to remove them.

[Hoa Phau]

Conan the destroyer, on Apr 7 2006, 07:44 AM, said:

We're talking about the late 14th, early 15th centuries. Long before contact with Europeans.

ok,

maybe mings would end up defeated for japan's tactics seemed unbeatable to the mings, japanese forces have strong defences like castles built and warriors trained to withstand the invasion.

or these mings might end up like mongols who are shipwrecked after storms and strong waves known as kamkaze before they could capture japan.

[dinowong]

Hoa Phau, on Apr 8 2006, 03:58 PM, said:

ok,

maybe mings would end up defeated for japan's tactics seemed unbeatable to the mings, japanese forces have strong defences like castles built and warriors trained to withstand the invasion.

or these mings might end up like mongols who are shipwrecked after storms and strong waves known as kamkaze before they could capture japan.

Are the Janpanese castles "STRONG DEFENCES"? I don't recognize the castles which are not any larger than a Chinese lord's manor would be stronger than any chinese city with stable wall, even I can't imagine the cruel vision that they'are under attack by the cannons, blunderbusses, and trebuchets etc.
Japanese castles are exactly bull, except their appearance.

[dinowong]

Ming didn't invade Japan just because most Chinese emperor congsidered Japan as a uncivilized region and would obtain less interest if they had captured Japan.

[Yang Zongbao]

dinowong, on Apr 8 2006, 05:26 AM, said:

Are the Janpanese castles "STRONG DEFENCES"? I don't recognize the castles which are not any larger than a Chinese lord's manor would be stronger than any chinese city with stable wall, even I can't imagine the cruel vision that they'are under attack by the cannons, blunderbusses, and trebuchets etc.
Japanese castles are exactly bull, except their appearance.

I wouldn't be so quick to snub other people's defenses. But to tell the truth, Castles? Whoopee. Everyone has them, it's not something terribly special.

[Strangelove]

Hoa Phau, on Apr 8 2006, 01:58 AM, said:

ok,

maybe mings would end up defeated for japan's tactics seemed unbeatable to the mings, japanese forces have strong defences like castles built and warriors trained to withstand the invasion.

or these mings might end up like mongols who are shipwrecked after storms and strong waves known as kamkaze before they could capture japan.

Back up your assertions, elaborate on 'japan's tactics', and how such tactics may fared against the Ming.

Fact was, samurai 'tactics' focused on personal and small-scale combat and rarely operated in a large coordinated scale regardless of quantity of fielded troops. The defeats of samurai pirates by 戚繼光's forces suggests japanese incapacity at handling large-scale maneuvers.

[Centaur]

Conan the destroyer, on Jan 11 2006, 02:00 AM, said:

In 1411, the Yoshimochi emperor of Japan terminated relations with China. Later, in 1418, Yongle sent a letter demanding Japan to submit as a tributary, and threatening to invade with an army far stronger than that of the Mongols who were defeated over 100 years earlier. Some questions...

1. Did Yongle actually plan to invade?
2. Do you think he could have been succesful?
3. If Yongle succeeded in conquering Japan, how would it have effected the world?

Just a slight correction regarding Yoshimochi. Yoshimochi Ashikaga was the shogun of Japan at that time. Emperor Go-Komatsu (後小松天皇 Go-Komatsu Tennō) (August 1, 1377 - December 1, 1433) was the 100th imperial ruler of Japan. The Shogun, the effective ruler of Japan, still ruled under the Emperor's name.

1. Yongle would not have the energy and time to consider opening so many fronts of war. He was already busy with the Mongols and Annam.

2. Given the technology of the time, perhaps yes, especially with Zheng He's ability to travel in long distance. However, by the vessel by which Zheng He travel were more geared towards to exploration than conquest. Again to take into consideration of Point 1, the Mings are tied up elsewhere.

3. If Japan should come under Ming's rule, it would not make much difference. The Emperor Hongxi who came after Yongle had shut off the travels of Zheng He. Xuande who came after Hongxi, was also busy with Annam and Mongolia, again doubtful either of the Emperors would even consider consolidating their hold over Japan, as long as Japan are willing to pay tribute to the Imperial Ming throne.

[wlee15]

Strangelove, on Apr 9 2006, 09:59 PM, said:

Back up your assertions, elaborate on 'japan's tactics', and how such tactics may fared against the Ming.

Fact was, samurai 'tactics' focused on personal and small-scale combat and rarely operated in a large coordinated scale regardless of quantity of fielded troops. The defeats of samurai pirates by 戚繼光's forces suggests japanese incapacity at handling large-scale maneuvers.

Japanese pirates should not be a measure of the Japanese armies' fighting ability anymore then Chinese pirates are of the Ming military strength. Also many of the pirates that Qi Jiguang fought were from many nations including a significant number of Chinese.